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This is strange. Even if vegetable intake is not beneficial against cancer - should higher veg consumption not crowd out red meat (I think you eat less meat whe

by manmal 10y ago

This is strange. Even if vegetable intake is not beneficial against cancer - should higher veg consumption not crowd out red meat (I think you eat less meat when eating more vegetables), leading to less cases of colon cancer? Also, what about vegetables with high fiber that gets converted to butyrates, and is thus anti-cancer? Is it all BS? Or is "overall cancer" a metric where high fiber might decrease colon cancer but leads to more cancers in other areas?

dualogy 10y ago
Have always been wondering about the supposed actual mechanism of how any meat would lead to colon cancer more/easier/likelier than fibrous foodstuffs, given that it is fibers that tend to end up in the colon whereas meat tends to be entirely liquefied in the stomach (not just softened and mashed as most plant foods are) and the resulting liquid near-on fully absorbed in the small intestines. Especially as the colon's entire purpose is to hold refuse and foreign substances. So somehow a few drops of leftover meat-liquid micro/macronutrients create more damage than roughage and seeds and such? Curious to hear from the better-informed non-epidemiologists out there ;)
- autokad 10y ago
  possibly acids making it from the stomach to the colon?
- desdiv 10y ago
  >There are several potential reasons to explain how red and processed meat may cause bowel cancer. Red meat contains a compound which gives it’s red colour, haem, which promotes the formation of potentially carcinogenic N-nitroso compounds. In addition when red meat is cooked at high temperatures, this results in the production of compounds (heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) that can cause bowel cancer in people with a genetic predisposition. In addition processed red meat has nitrites, as well as nitrates added to it as preservatives and these are thought to cause cancer. Processing also changes the nature of the meat, which may play a role in its link to cancer. http://www.wcrf.org/int/blog/articles/2015/10/red-meat-and-bowel-cancer-risk-how-strong-evidence http://www.wcrf.org/int/blog/articles/2015/10/red-meat-and-b...
  - dualogy 10y ago
    Interesting theories! And appropriately cautiously formulated, too.. a lot more to actually investigate then: > how red and processed meat may cause bowel cancer > compounds that can cause bowel cancer in people with a genetic predisposition > nitrites, as well as nitrates and these are thought to cause cancer > which may play a role in its link to cancer.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    Do you know if steamed or boiled meats generate HAs and PAH? I've know about both for a while and switched to only eating meat I've steamed or boiled.
- scythe 10y ago
  http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/2/177.short http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/2... >The mechanism is not known, but heme iron has a catalytic effect on (i) the endogenous formation of carcinogenic N-nitroso compounds and (ii) the formation of cytotoxic and genotoxic aldehydes by lipoperoxidation. A review of evidence supporting these hypotheses suggests that both pathways are involved in heme iron toxicity The irony is, of course, heme iron is the highest bioavailability form of iron, and is one of the main reasons to consume meat in the first place: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3290310 http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3290310 > Food iron is classified as heme or nonheme. Approximately half of the iron in meat, fish, and poultry is heme iron. Depending on an individual's iron stores, 15% to 35% of heme iron is absorbed. Food contains more nonheme iron and, thus, it makes the larger contribution to the body's iron pool despite its lower absorption rate of 2% to 20%.
autokad 10y ago
i think the most important take away with nutrition is eat what your ancestors ate. you're probably not japanese so its less likely that the results apply to you. I myself switched from drinking soda to OJ. my health declined slowly for a long time until I found out my body doesnt like oranges. fruit can be healthy but i doubt we are supposed to eat all fruit diets. Astin Kutcher took on Steve Job's all fruit diet and ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. And we all know what happened to Steve Jobs.
- griffinmmahon 10y ago
  OJ is just sugar water though, the value of fruit is (I think) the whole fruit.
  - autokad 10y ago
    true, but i have an even stronger alergic reaction to the fruit :) its also worth noting that fruit is sugar water. its 98-99% water + 2% sugar and fiber
    - griffinmmahon 10y ago
      Hm. I've heard lots of different angles on not eating fruit but never got these numbers. Thanks!
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - dxhdr 10y ago
      > its also worth noting that fruit is sugar water. its 98-99% water + 2% sugar and fiber Oranges, apples, etc are only 85% water. Grapes 80%. The rest is fiber and is likely why your body tells you to stop eating them. Two and a half apples is a lot less appealing than a can of soda (actual sugar water). The whole percent water thing is completely meaningless though, human brains are 85% water and babies are 80%.
tnmrnis 10y ago
AFAIK is red meat not causing cancer per se. While there has been a correlation between red meat intake and colon cancer shown, the studies that have shown this didn't differentiate between highly processed products made out of red meat (think of sausage) and rather natural meat (think of steak) itself. The processed stuff is packed with all kinds of sugar, preservatives, flavor enhancer and colouration which might be the cause for the higher rates of colon cancer. To my knowledge these highly processed meat products are not common in Japan.

by manmal 10y ago

dualogy 10y ago

Have always been wondering about the supposed actual mechanism of how any meat would lead to colon cancer more/easier/likelier than fibrous foodstuffs, given that it is fibers that tend to end up in the colon whereas meat tends to be entirely liquefied in the stomach (not just softened and mashed as most plant foods are) and the resulting liquid near-on fully absorbed in the small intestines. Especially as the colon's entire purpose is to hold refuse and foreign substances. So somehow a few drops of leftover meat-liquid micro/macronutrients create more damage than roughage and seeds and such? Curious to hear from the better-informed non-epidemiologists out there ;)

autokad 10y ago
possibly acids making it from the stomach to the colon?
desdiv 10y ago
>There are several potential reasons to explain how red and processed meat may cause bowel cancer. Red meat contains a compound which gives it’s red colour, haem, which promotes the formation of potentially carcinogenic N-nitroso compounds. In addition when red meat is cooked at high temperatures, this results in the production of compounds (heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) that can cause bowel cancer in people with a genetic predisposition. In addition processed red meat has nitrites, as well as nitrates added to it as preservatives and these are thought to cause cancer. Processing also changes the nature of the meat, which may play a role in its link to cancer. http://www.wcrf.org/int/blog/articles/2015/10/red-meat-and-bowel-cancer-risk-how-strong-evidence http://www.wcrf.org/int/blog/articles/2015/10/red-meat-and-b...
- dualogy 10y ago
  Interesting theories! And appropriately cautiously formulated, too.. a lot more to actually investigate then: > how red and processed meat may cause bowel cancer > compounds that can cause bowel cancer in people with a genetic predisposition > nitrites, as well as nitrates and these are thought to cause cancer > which may play a role in its link to cancer.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  Do you know if steamed or boiled meats generate HAs and PAH? I've know about both for a while and switched to only eating meat I've steamed or boiled.
scythe 10y ago
http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/2/177.short http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/2... >The mechanism is not known, but heme iron has a catalytic effect on (i) the endogenous formation of carcinogenic N-nitroso compounds and (ii) the formation of cytotoxic and genotoxic aldehydes by lipoperoxidation. A review of evidence supporting these hypotheses suggests that both pathways are involved in heme iron toxicity The irony is, of course, heme iron is the highest bioavailability form of iron, and is one of the main reasons to consume meat in the first place: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3290310 http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3290310 > Food iron is classified as heme or nonheme. Approximately half of the iron in meat, fish, and poultry is heme iron. Depending on an individual's iron stores, 15% to 35% of heme iron is absorbed. Food contains more nonheme iron and, thus, it makes the larger contribution to the body's iron pool despite its lower absorption rate of 2% to 20%.

autokad 10y ago

i think the most important take away with nutrition is eat what your ancestors ate. you're probably not japanese so its less likely that the results apply to you. I myself switched from drinking soda to OJ. my health declined slowly for a long time until I found out my body doesnt like oranges. fruit can be healthy but i doubt we are supposed to eat all fruit diets. Astin Kutcher took on Steve Job's all fruit diet and ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. And we all know what happened to Steve Jobs.

griffinmmahon 10y ago
OJ is just sugar water though, the value of fruit is (I think) the whole fruit.
- autokad 10y ago
  true, but i have an even stronger alergic reaction to the fruit :) its also worth noting that fruit is sugar water. its 98-99% water + 2% sugar and fiber
  - griffinmmahon 10y ago
    Hm. I've heard lots of different angles on not eating fruit but never got these numbers. Thanks!
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - dxhdr 10y ago
    > its also worth noting that fruit is sugar water. its 98-99% water + 2% sugar and fiber Oranges, apples, etc are only 85% water. Grapes 80%. The rest is fiber and is likely why your body tells you to stop eating them. Two and a half apples is a lot less appealing than a can of soda (actual sugar water). The whole percent water thing is completely meaningless though, human brains are 85% water and babies are 80%.

tnmrnis 10y ago

AFAIK is red meat not causing cancer per se. While there has been a correlation between red meat intake and colon cancer shown, the studies that have shown this didn't differentiate between highly processed products made out of red meat (think of sausage) and rather natural meat (think of steak) itself. The processed stuff is packed with all kinds of sugar, preservatives, flavor enhancer and colouration which might be the cause for the higher rates of colon cancer. To my knowledge these highly processed meat products are not common in Japan.