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Personally I think the backlash against colleges is overblown. Articles like this talk about conservatism as if it were just another view on the correct way to

by osazuwa 10y ago

Personally I think the backlash against colleges is overblown. Articles like this talk about conservatism as if it were just another view on the correct way to slice a pizza. But often the ideas in question are those that specifically challenge the rights of a group of people to exist or have opportunities to succeed. Certainly it can go too far. Certainly, administrators shouldn't run universities by mob rule. But on the other end, why should I stand there and smile politely while someone comes to my campus and launches a propaganda campaign and recruiting drive for ideas that challenge my way of life and in some cases my life entirely? And you know what? Fuck Andrew Calhoun and Cecil Rhodes, and all these great namesakes of many campus halls and public works, who spent much of their lives institutionalizing oppression. It is easy to ignore the "bad" in favor of the good when the "bad" wasn't trying to create a future where people that look like you are under someone else's boot.

sagichmal 10y ago
Thank you for your humane and reassuring response to an insipid and puerile article.
guitarbill 10y ago
Personally I think the backlash against colleges is just starting. Diversity of opinion should be encouraged, not stomped out because you feel "challenged". With diversity of opinions comes unsavoury or misguided opinions. Then debate occurs and some people might change their minds, but either way both sides growing in the process. Shaming and other ad hominem attacks are lazy, even the ancient Greeks understood this. > why should I stand there and smile politely while someone comes to my campus and launches a propaganda campaign and recruiting drive for ideas that challenge my way of life It's a bit self-centred, no? And also ironic, that campuses are so dominated by left ideologies that different ideas have to come from outside, and then are rejected by the uniform group think on campus. Safe spaces are disingenuous and counterproductive for preparing students for the real world. After college, nobody will protect you, unless you live at your parents. Especially if you've travelled, you know this. If you don't push the boundaries, you don't grow.
- didibus 10y ago
  > Then debate occurs and some people might change their minds, but either way both sides growing in the process. I'm not sure this is what would happen. What's the line between debate and propaganda? What if one opinion benefits the speaker, then it's not even about learning, or changing your opinion. I might very well know that what I'm saying is not the optimal solution, or might even be counter productive to the debated goal, yet if it benefits me, I can continue to furiously argue and convince everyone I can, without a chance for anyone to change my mind, unless somehow, changing my mind would start to benefit me more. I've learned in my personal life that it is worthless to engage a debate with someone who is not receptive and open minded. If the people involved value something else then the debated outcome, they have hidden agendas, and no debate can happen, all of it becomes a manipulative scheme, and a big waste of time to the people actually looking to have a debate. If I ran a University, I'd be ashamed to allow speakers who carry hidden agendas, and are not motivated by the true outcome of the debate to come speak at my school. That to me, is the line between debate and propaganda.
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    I think it's quite dangerous to assume most humans don't potentially have hidden agendas - and it's even easier to overlook if you happen to agree with them. As for debate vs propaganda. Especially if the other person isn't willing to change their opinion, you've learn something. And those people usually have extremely interesting back stories. Engaging with humans instead of ideologies is far more rewarding.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- bobdole1234 10y ago
  I think you've missed the point of safe spaces. These are places for people to figure out who they are outside of that "protection" that parents and the rest have put over these people their whole lives until this point. The reason people go a little crazy in college is because they're forced to confront the idea they've never had the autonomy to be themselves before. They're exposed to people who lead lives that they had no idea were a possibility, let alone something they might want to become. And the reason the left is practically universal in higher education the same reason why the left side of the spectrum is represented pretty much universally across every other government in the developed world: Education forces you to consider things larger than yourself and your little tribe. You want the students in the "real world" to consider things the same way you do, but when they reject your opinions, it's not because they're brainwashed. It's because you've not presented an effective argument. When they show up in masses to shout down your ideology, I'm curious why you don't question your approach. But no, it's the children that are wrong, isn't it Principal?
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
I think that while you've successfully addressed last Thursday's shitshow at Berkeley, you've completely missed the point of the article. The point is not that students should be forced to allow their own oppression at school. The point is that we should not treat students as consumers, nor run universities as over-leveraged businesses who can't pay their staff or taxes if a controversy hits their tuition revenues this year. Universities will be better places to protest when the Faculty Senate has the power to tell nanny-administrators and oversensitive parents to fuck right off, and then turn to the students and tell them to read Marx or Rawls for a damn change if they want to confront social issues.
- trendia 10y ago
  And after they read Marx and Rawls they can read about what Stalin did to the revolutionaries that got him into power.
Chris2048 10y ago
> why should I stand there and smile politely while someone comes to my campus and launches a propaganda campaign and recruiting drive for ideas that challenge my way of life You don't have to smile anywhere, but you have no right to interfere otherwise.

by osazuwa 10y ago

sagichmal 10y ago

Thank you for your humane and reassuring response to an insipid and puerile article.

guitarbill 10y ago

Personally I think the backlash against colleges is just starting. Diversity of opinion should be encouraged, not stomped out because you feel "challenged". With diversity of opinions comes unsavoury or misguided opinions. Then debate occurs and some people might change their minds, but either way both sides growing in the process. Shaming and other ad hominem attacks are lazy, even the ancient Greeks understood this. > why should I stand there and smile politely while someone comes to my campus and launches a propaganda campaign and recruiting drive for ideas that challenge my way of life It's a bit self-centred, no? And also ironic, that campuses are so dominated by left ideologies that different ideas have to come from outside, and then are rejected by the uniform group think on campus. Safe spaces are disingenuous and counterproductive for preparing students for the real world. After college, nobody will protect you, unless you live at your parents. Especially if you've travelled, you know this. If you don't push the boundaries, you don't grow.

didibus 10y ago
> Then debate occurs and some people might change their minds, but either way both sides growing in the process. I'm not sure this is what would happen. What's the line between debate and propaganda? What if one opinion benefits the speaker, then it's not even about learning, or changing your opinion. I might very well know that what I'm saying is not the optimal solution, or might even be counter productive to the debated goal, yet if it benefits me, I can continue to furiously argue and convince everyone I can, without a chance for anyone to change my mind, unless somehow, changing my mind would start to benefit me more. I've learned in my personal life that it is worthless to engage a debate with someone who is not receptive and open minded. If the people involved value something else then the debated outcome, they have hidden agendas, and no debate can happen, all of it becomes a manipulative scheme, and a big waste of time to the people actually looking to have a debate. If I ran a University, I'd be ashamed to allow speakers who carry hidden agendas, and are not motivated by the true outcome of the debate to come speak at my school. That to me, is the line between debate and propaganda.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  I think it's quite dangerous to assume most humans don't potentially have hidden agendas - and it's even easier to overlook if you happen to agree with them. As for debate vs propaganda. Especially if the other person isn't willing to change their opinion, you've learn something. And those people usually have extremely interesting back stories. Engaging with humans instead of ideologies is far more rewarding.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
bobdole1234 10y ago
I think you've missed the point of safe spaces. These are places for people to figure out who they are outside of that "protection" that parents and the rest have put over these people their whole lives until this point. The reason people go a little crazy in college is because they're forced to confront the idea they've never had the autonomy to be themselves before. They're exposed to people who lead lives that they had no idea were a possibility, let alone something they might want to become. And the reason the left is practically universal in higher education the same reason why the left side of the spectrum is represented pretty much universally across every other government in the developed world: Education forces you to consider things larger than yourself and your little tribe. You want the students in the "real world" to consider things the same way you do, but when they reject your opinions, it's not because they're brainwashed. It's because you've not presented an effective argument. When they show up in masses to shout down your ideology, I'm curious why you don't question your approach. But no, it's the children that are wrong, isn't it Principal?

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

I think that while you've successfully addressed last Thursday's shitshow at Berkeley, you've completely missed the point of the article. The point is not that students should be forced to allow their own oppression at school. The point is that we should not treat students as consumers, nor run universities as over-leveraged businesses who can't pay their staff or taxes if a controversy hits their tuition revenues this year. Universities will be better places to protest when the Faculty Senate has the power to tell nanny-administrators and oversensitive parents to fuck right off, and then turn to the students and tell them to read Marx or Rawls for a damn change if they want to confront social issues.

trendia 10y ago
And after they read Marx and Rawls they can read about what Stalin did to the revolutionaries that got him into power.

Chris2048 10y ago

> why should I stand there and smile politely while someone comes to my campus and launches a propaganda campaign and recruiting drive for ideas that challenge my way of life You don't have to smile anywhere, but you have no right to interfere otherwise.