6 ms·

I first heard this 13 years ago. A friend visited an airline, and had a set of cables pointed out to him: "That's the feed to the NSA". I thought it was well

by adekok 10y ago

I first heard this 13 years ago. A friend visited an airline, and had a set of cables pointed out to him: "That's the feed to the NSA". I thought it was well known that the NSA had feeds into the airline reservation system. We know for sure that the CBP gets data from all flights which overfly the US, or which might overfly the US. There are well known stories about planes making unscheduled landings in the US (emergency, storm, delays, etc). Cue CBP opening the front doors, walking down the aisle, and pulling one guy off the plane. "Sorry sir, you are forbidden to enter the US, and you have just done so illegally. You're under arrest". Except for most people, we haven't cleared customs, and haven't tried to enter the States. So the rest of the passengers are "OK". Mostly. This is known as having your cake and eating it, too.

jjoonathan 10y ago
Wow. I wonder if it was opportunistic or planned. Either way, brilliant job of manufacturing consent. I'm both horrified and impressed.
- kobeya 10y ago
  That's not consent, manufactured or otherwise.
  - jjoonathan 10y ago
    I've seen people get upset about overreach when the US asked to have a plane diverted / tried to strongarm extraditions / etc. I'd bet a large sum that this story was reported as "...detained while attempting to enter US..." and that nobody batted an eye upon reading it. That is the manufactured consent I was referring to.
65827 10y ago
So much of the conspiracy theory hearsay turned out to be true in the past 20 years, it really makes you think. Or not so much. Whatever.
- anon2264 10y ago
  In season 1 of the X-Files the 'Lone Gunmen,' a group of conspiracy theorists, was added to the show to make Mulder appear more credible and down-to-earth. One of their 'crazy, batshit insane,' conspiracy theories was that the government was recording all of our phone calls. think of all of the circumstances we've become used to now that were the territory of conspiracy theorists 25 years ago.
  - wtbob 10y ago
    > One of their 'crazy, batshit insane,' conspiracy theories was that the government was recording all of our phone calls. > think of all of the circumstances we've become used to now that were the territory of conspiracy theorists 25 years ago. There may be many such circumstances, but certainly not the one you mention: the government doesn't record all of our phone calls.
    - tastythrowaway2 10y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/teleph...
tantalor 10y ago
That's scary considering the vast "overflight" area claimed by the US: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Overflight_Fee_Map.png#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Overflight_Fee_...
- graeme 10y ago
  Is there anything Canada could do, if the US started targeting overflights aggressively, forbidding travel by dual citizens from certain countries, etc.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    Cuban charter flights to Canada used to dog-leg around the eastern region, nearly doubling their duration. You can also see why the Polar 'over the top' routes became so popular when the USSR dissolved.
- vinay427 10y ago
  This isn't space unilaterally claimed by the US. It is delegated by the ICAO, as one of the articles using that image mentions [1]. If the US has the infrastructure to control that airspace, and typically charges less than nearby countries such as Canada, then I see no objection to US control. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air#First_freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air#First_free...
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    >then I see no objection to US control. The fact that it seems to give the US free rein to kidnap any passengers entering that area doesn't strike you as problematic?
    - hueving 10y ago
      You are confusing airspace under US air traffic control and US airspace. Those areas are still international waters.
morgante 10y ago
> There are well known stories about planes making unscheduled landings in the US (emergency, storm, delays, etc). Do you have a link to one such story?
- adekok 10y ago
  I can't recall specifics, but look at this: http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_St... The US doesn't allow "sterile transit". You MUST clear customs if you land in the States. And it requires a visa for most people. FTA: The US also has a "no fly list"; if your name is on that, you cannot board a flight that will pass through US airspace, even if the flight does not land in the US (eg. flights from Mexico to Canada). i.e. there is every reason to believe that someone on a "no fly list" who accidentally lands in the States will be arrested. Similarly, anyone without a visa is breaking the law, and can be arrested.
  - morgante 10y ago
    > The US doesn't allow "sterile transit." Sure, but that's entirely unrelated to the original comment. It also applies to everyone. Your original comment suggested that a single passenger can be singled out for arrest due to a forced non-routine stop. If it's a "well known" phenomenon it shouldn't be hard to find a single source. I'm not trying to be combative, but in general I think claims of sneaky and absurd behavior should be backed by evidence.
    - adekok 10y ago
      > I think claims of sneaky and absurd behavior Such as following the law? a) there is no "sterile transit" in the US b) there is a "no fly list" What do you think happens to someone who's on the "no fly list" and lands in the US? They get milk and cookies? https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority s to identify and interdict persons who have already committed or may potentially commit a terrorist act in the future. Or this: https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-the-passengers-crew-on-an-airliner-forced-to-make-an-emergency-landing-in-a-country-and-their-passports-lack-a-valid-entry-visa https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-the-passengers-crew-on... So... you're saying they have the legal right to arrest people, and people will land in the States when they are banned from entry, but that it (a) has never happened, or (b) never will happen? Come on... there's being skeptical, and there's being so closed minded that reality can't get in,
chx 10y ago
Everything in your post rings false. > 13 years ago. A friend visited an airline, and had a set of cables pointed out to him: "That's the feed to the NSA". 13 years ago, that is 2004 noone would openly talk about the NSA, Room 641A was only exposed in 2006. I would also venture that in 2004 noone had or needed a direct feed to the NSA, the Internet would already do. In case you do not remember, how 2004 was, by 2000 you have Expedia, Travelocity, Priceline, Hotwire, Tripadvisor all launched. Edit: as comments below and the article itself points it out, the NSA would get your data from the GDS if it's there, what I mean here is that OP claims a dedicated line running to the NSA when it could have just used the Internet instead of a dedicated line to connect to your system. By 2004, the Internet was plenty established for that. That's all I meant. > There are well known stories about planes making unscheduled landings in the US This is, in fact, extremely rare. A flight which does not start or end in the USA rarely has the need to fly over it. Europe/Asia - Central America would and not much else -- and there are very few such direct flights, mostly only to Mexico City. Even a London-Bogota flight wouldn't. > CBP opening the front doors, walking down the aisle, and pulling one guy off the plane. While the previous event is merely rare this would be extraordinary and all over the news, even if not mainstream news. All the news I can remember about law enforcement boarding an emergency landed plane is about unruly passengers, not this Bond shit. So... source?
- objclxt 10y ago
  > I would also venture that in 2004 noone had or needed a direct feed to the NSA, the Internet would already do. In case you do not remember, how 2004 was, by 2000 you have Expedia, Travelocity, Priceline, Hotwire, Tripadvisor all launched. That doesn't cover airline bookings that happened via travel agent or directly into the booking system. Many airline reservation systems pre-date the internet (SABRE, for example, came online in 1964), and much of the architecture driving the airline industry is archaic (which is one reason why a system outage can have such a massive impact on flights).
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- avn2109 10y ago
robjan 10y ago
These days, your booking record (PNR) is pushed to the relevant agencies every time it's updated. It's how the watchlists are cross-checked.

by adekok 10y ago

jjoonathan 10y ago

Wow. I wonder if it was opportunistic or planned. Either way, brilliant job of manufacturing consent. I'm both horrified and impressed.

kobeya 10y ago
That's not consent, manufactured or otherwise.
- jjoonathan 10y ago
  I've seen people get upset about overreach when the US asked to have a plane diverted / tried to strongarm extraditions / etc. I'd bet a large sum that this story was reported as "...detained while attempting to enter US..." and that nobody batted an eye upon reading it. That is the manufactured consent I was referring to.

65827 10y ago

So much of the conspiracy theory hearsay turned out to be true in the past 20 years, it really makes you think. Or not so much. Whatever.

anon2264 10y ago
In season 1 of the X-Files the 'Lone Gunmen,' a group of conspiracy theorists, was added to the show to make Mulder appear more credible and down-to-earth. One of their 'crazy, batshit insane,' conspiracy theories was that the government was recording all of our phone calls. think of all of the circumstances we've become used to now that were the territory of conspiracy theorists 25 years ago.
- wtbob 10y ago
  > One of their 'crazy, batshit insane,' conspiracy theories was that the government was recording all of our phone calls. > think of all of the circumstances we've become used to now that were the territory of conspiracy theorists 25 years ago. There may be many such circumstances, but certainly not the one you mention: the government doesn't record all of our phone calls.
  - tastythrowaway2 10y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/teleph...

tantalor 10y ago

That's scary considering the vast "overflight" area claimed by the US: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Overflight_Fee_Map.png#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Overflight_Fee_...

graeme 10y ago
Is there anything Canada could do, if the US started targeting overflights aggressively, forbidding travel by dual citizens from certain countries, etc.
- dingaling 10y ago
  Cuban charter flights to Canada used to dog-leg around the eastern region, nearly doubling their duration. You can also see why the Polar 'over the top' routes became so popular when the USSR dissolved.
vinay427 10y ago
This isn't space unilaterally claimed by the US. It is delegated by the ICAO, as one of the articles using that image mentions [1]. If the US has the infrastructure to control that airspace, and typically charges less than nearby countries such as Canada, then I see no objection to US control. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air#First_freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air#First_free...
- ryanlol 10y ago
  >then I see no objection to US control. The fact that it seems to give the US free rein to kidnap any passengers entering that area doesn't strike you as problematic?
  - hueving 10y ago
    You are confusing airspace under US air traffic control and US airspace. Those areas are still international waters.

morgante 10y ago

> There are well known stories about planes making unscheduled landings in the US (emergency, storm, delays, etc). Do you have a link to one such story?

adekok 10y ago
I can't recall specifics, but look at this: http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_St... The US doesn't allow "sterile transit". You MUST clear customs if you land in the States. And it requires a visa for most people. FTA: The US also has a "no fly list"; if your name is on that, you cannot board a flight that will pass through US airspace, even if the flight does not land in the US (eg. flights from Mexico to Canada). i.e. there is every reason to believe that someone on a "no fly list" who accidentally lands in the States will be arrested. Similarly, anyone without a visa is breaking the law, and can be arrested.
- morgante 10y ago
  > The US doesn't allow "sterile transit." Sure, but that's entirely unrelated to the original comment. It also applies to everyone. Your original comment suggested that a single passenger can be singled out for arrest due to a forced non-routine stop. If it's a "well known" phenomenon it shouldn't be hard to find a single source. I'm not trying to be combative, but in general I think claims of sneaky and absurd behavior should be backed by evidence.
  - adekok 10y ago
    > I think claims of sneaky and absurd behavior Such as following the law? a) there is no "sterile transit" in the US b) there is a "no fly list" What do you think happens to someone who's on the "no fly list" and lands in the US? They get milk and cookies? https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority s to identify and interdict persons who have already committed or may potentially commit a terrorist act in the future. Or this: https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-the-passengers-crew-on-an-airliner-forced-to-make-an-emergency-landing-in-a-country-and-their-passports-lack-a-valid-entry-visa https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-the-passengers-crew-on... So... you're saying they have the legal right to arrest people, and people will land in the States when they are banned from entry, but that it (a) has never happened, or (b) never will happen? Come on... there's being skeptical, and there's being so closed minded that reality can't get in,

chx 10y ago

Everything in your post rings false. > 13 years ago. A friend visited an airline, and had a set of cables pointed out to him: "That's the feed to the NSA". 13 years ago, that is 2004 noone would openly talk about the NSA, Room 641A was only exposed in 2006. I would also venture that in 2004 noone had or needed a direct feed to the NSA, the Internet would already do. In case you do not remember, how 2004 was, by 2000 you have Expedia, Travelocity, Priceline, Hotwire, Tripadvisor all launched. Edit: as comments below and the article itself points it out, the NSA would get your data from the GDS if it's there, what I mean here is that OP claims a dedicated line running to the NSA when it could have just used the Internet instead of a dedicated line to connect to your system. By 2004, the Internet was plenty established for that. That's all I meant. > There are well known stories about planes making unscheduled landings in the US This is, in fact, extremely rare. A flight which does not start or end in the USA rarely has the need to fly over it. Europe/Asia - Central America would and not much else -- and there are very few such direct flights, mostly only to Mexico City. Even a London-Bogota flight wouldn't. > CBP opening the front doors, walking down the aisle, and pulling one guy off the plane. While the previous event is merely rare this would be extraordinary and all over the news, even if not mainstream news. All the news I can remember about law enforcement boarding an emergency landed plane is about unruly passengers, not this Bond shit. So... source?

objclxt 10y ago
> I would also venture that in 2004 noone had or needed a direct feed to the NSA, the Internet would already do. In case you do not remember, how 2004 was, by 2000 you have Expedia, Travelocity, Priceline, Hotwire, Tripadvisor all launched. That doesn't cover airline bookings that happened via travel agent or directly into the booking system. Many airline reservation systems pre-date the internet (SABRE, for example, came online in 1964), and much of the architecture driving the airline industry is archaic (which is one reason why a system outage can have such a massive impact on flights).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
avn2109 10y ago

robjan 10y ago

These days, your booking record (PNR) is pushed to the relevant agencies every time it's updated. It's how the watchlists are cross-checked.