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I don't know. I feel like if I need something productive, I would go very high level like Python. In the VERY rare case Python is too slow, I would go really lo

I don't know. I feel like if I need something productive, I would go very high level like Python. In the VERY rare case Python is too slow, I would go really low level like rust. I don't see the interest for something that not really low level, but not realy high level either like Go. If concurrency is the main issue and is the niche I'm targeting, I would go Erlang or Elixir. I have a hard time finding any use case for Go.

oscargrouch 10y ago
For me Go is the goto language for usecases where Python and Java were used. Python is great for tooling, and Java was the primary language for the backend. So now, whenever i think about tooling or backend, Go is the primary answer, because its good in both paradigms. The other languages i use is C++, and Swift, each one with their own niches. C++ for complex machinery, that requires more control and integration with other libs, and Swift for general applications, specially the ones that are user focused. In my case, i cant find a niche for Rust. And thats because C++ is already covering that ground for me. I can see why i would use Rust instead of C++, but in the majority of cases where i use C++, there are huge complementary source code already in C++, making the effort to code everything in Rust from scratch, a complete nonsense. So for me the language in "limbo" right now is Rust. (and i dont think that people with big C++ codebases would rewrite in Rust, because there's little advantage, at least compared to modern C++)
- steveklabnik 10y ago
  One nice thing about the "rewrite C++ in Rust" is that oh can do it incrementally; we're taking the same approach for Firefox, for example. Out of curiosity, what are the libraries in C++ that you miss in Rust, or would have to re-write?
  - oscargrouch 10y ago
    For me C++ (or Rust) would be the languages to go for Browsers, VM's, Compilers, Game Engines, Glue Code for a OS(platform layer to prepare things for a app to run) etc.. The problem is, there's a lot of code in C++ already for all of this. V8, Dart, Java Vm's in C++, Webkit, Chrome, Firefox in C++, great game engines in C++. Is not that i wouldnt use Rust.. on the contrary. But the problem is, for the usecase i think Rust would be very good, there are a lot of code in C++ already, that would require a effort of years to port in Rust. For instance i work in Chrome C++ source a lot.. and the codebase is a beast. Maybe if, in the future, things that are starting now in Rust, will be the the successful cases for this kind of machinery. But given that, at least i, wouldnt use Rust to make a webserver backend (the same way i wouldnt use C++ for that), because i think its overkill. While i like Rust, i cant see a opportunity to use it, and the great impediment for that, is the C++ codebase legacy, and both languages basically competing for the same paradigm. But theres a great thing in favor of Rust, because its the only modern real contender to C++. But i think it will be a slow and harsh competition (albeit a necessary one).
    - steveklabnik 10y ago
      Cool, totally get this argument. I was mostly curious if you were thinking about something in Rust, but then found the libraries lacking, as we're trying to work on filling in gaps here.
      - oscargrouch 10y ago
        Yes. And just to make it clear, when i say "in limbo" is actually a compliment, in a sense that i want to use it, but didnt found the right opportunity to do so. I would be glad to be able to use Go, Swift and Rust, instead of Go, Swift and C++. Its just that i cant find a way to do so, and it has nothing to do with Rust the language, the ecosystem and the community. They are all awesome.
nine_k 10y ago
The target audience is people who don't know Elixir and Rust, have no time and not enough conceptual base to learn them in a reasonable time, and have to ship concurrent code, fast. Go is stupidly simple; this can also be an upside. Python's concurrency story is much better in 3.5+ than in 2.x, but a lot of people use 2.x for various reasons.
- kajecounterhack 10y ago
  Turns out also that, from an organizational perspective, it can take a lot to support n+1 programming languages. A codebase with 10 languages is more difficult to maintain than one with 2 or 3. As a result I think there is large benefit to having a language like Go -- it satisfies many overlapping needs, and organizations can avoid adopting too many other languages that fulfill niche areas. At Google there are only (5) core / officially supported languages: Python, Javascript, Java, C++, and Go. Python is generally applied in a scripting context. Javascript in frontend context. Java / C++ where you'd expect. Go for writing servers, application infra, tools, scripts, etc.
  - kibwen 10y ago
    You forgot Dart and Typescript, which power AdWords and Angular respectively.

oscargrouch 10y ago

For me Go is the goto language for usecases where Python and Java were used. Python is great for tooling, and Java was the primary language for the backend. So now, whenever i think about tooling or backend, Go is the primary answer, because its good in both paradigms. The other languages i use is C++, and Swift, each one with their own niches. C++ for complex machinery, that requires more control and integration with other libs, and Swift for general applications, specially the ones that are user focused. In my case, i cant find a niche for Rust. And thats because C++ is already covering that ground for me. I can see why i would use Rust instead of C++, but in the majority of cases where i use C++, there are huge complementary source code already in C++, making the effort to code everything in Rust from scratch, a complete nonsense. So for me the language in "limbo" right now is Rust. (and i dont think that people with big C++ codebases would rewrite in Rust, because there's little advantage, at least compared to modern C++)

steveklabnik 10y ago
One nice thing about the "rewrite C++ in Rust" is that oh can do it incrementally; we're taking the same approach for Firefox, for example. Out of curiosity, what are the libraries in C++ that you miss in Rust, or would have to re-write?
- oscargrouch 10y ago
  For me C++ (or Rust) would be the languages to go for Browsers, VM's, Compilers, Game Engines, Glue Code for a OS(platform layer to prepare things for a app to run) etc.. The problem is, there's a lot of code in C++ already for all of this. V8, Dart, Java Vm's in C++, Webkit, Chrome, Firefox in C++, great game engines in C++. Is not that i wouldnt use Rust.. on the contrary. But the problem is, for the usecase i think Rust would be very good, there are a lot of code in C++ already, that would require a effort of years to port in Rust. For instance i work in Chrome C++ source a lot.. and the codebase is a beast. Maybe if, in the future, things that are starting now in Rust, will be the the successful cases for this kind of machinery. But given that, at least i, wouldnt use Rust to make a webserver backend (the same way i wouldnt use C++ for that), because i think its overkill. While i like Rust, i cant see a opportunity to use it, and the great impediment for that, is the C++ codebase legacy, and both languages basically competing for the same paradigm. But theres a great thing in favor of Rust, because its the only modern real contender to C++. But i think it will be a slow and harsh competition (albeit a necessary one).
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    Cool, totally get this argument. I was mostly curious if you were thinking about something in Rust, but then found the libraries lacking, as we're trying to work on filling in gaps here.
    - oscargrouch 10y ago
      Yes. And just to make it clear, when i say "in limbo" is actually a compliment, in a sense that i want to use it, but didnt found the right opportunity to do so. I would be glad to be able to use Go, Swift and Rust, instead of Go, Swift and C++. Its just that i cant find a way to do so, and it has nothing to do with Rust the language, the ecosystem and the community. They are all awesome.

nine_k 10y ago

The target audience is people who don't know Elixir and Rust, have no time and not enough conceptual base to learn them in a reasonable time, and have to ship concurrent code, fast. Go is stupidly simple; this can also be an upside. Python's concurrency story is much better in 3.5+ than in 2.x, but a lot of people use 2.x for various reasons.

kajecounterhack 10y ago
Turns out also that, from an organizational perspective, it can take a lot to support n+1 programming languages. A codebase with 10 languages is more difficult to maintain than one with 2 or 3. As a result I think there is large benefit to having a language like Go -- it satisfies many overlapping needs, and organizations can avoid adopting too many other languages that fulfill niche areas. At Google there are only (5) core / officially supported languages: Python, Javascript, Java, C++, and Go. Python is generally applied in a scripting context. Javascript in frontend context. Java / C++ where you'd expect. Go for writing servers, application infra, tools, scripts, etc.
- kibwen 10y ago
  You forgot Dart and Typescript, which power AdWords and Angular respectively.