3 ms·

It's true that Germany is not the only "orderly" society, in your example the US and the UK are also such (to varying degrees, but they are all well on the "org

by ido 10y ago

It's true that Germany is not the only "orderly" society, in your example the US and the UK are also such (to varying degrees, but they are all well on the "organized" side of the spectrum) - as are almost any in the northern parts of Europe & some former British colonies such as Australia or Canada. But I invite you to spend any amount of time in any Indian-subcontinent country and emerge with the conclusion that it's just as orderly as Germany only in a different manner (and for less extreme examples try Turkey, (southern) Italy or Israel).

lispm 10y ago
Have you ever seen an Indian company from the inside? The chance that the hierarchy in the company reflects the caste system is very high, even in IT companies. The caste system still imposes a very strict order into the society. Organization then is top down. Visit the Krishna temple in Bengaluru sometime. Nice long queues. People wait hours without any problem. There is a another, more expensive, but faster queue. Nobody complains. Huge crowds there. Nicely organized they move through the temple. India also has a powerful bureaucracy, it's just not that efficient and people don't seem to expect efficiency. You either follow the rules or pay around it. In Germany you have bureaucracy, but one would expect at least some efficiency - though the recent large scale projects like the Berlin airport or the Stuttgart train station show the opposite. At least in Hamburg the Elbphilharmonie concert hall has been finished recently - after years of delay - with rising costs of ten times the original estimate. So much for order and efficiency in Germany. One thing you should know about Germans: they complain. A lot. About everything. Sometimes it even helps.
- ido 10y ago
  Are you serious? Yes, exceptions exist. But they are rare. I spent a couple months in northern India (Delhi and some nearby regions) about a decade ago, chaos was everywhere, all the time. Just need to step outside to experience it.
  - lispm 10y ago
    Check out the Berlin Brandenburg Airport project. Total chaos. 15 years planning. More than ten years of construction. Maybe open 2018. Maybe. 7 years late. 7 billion Euro and rising. Not the German orderly execution you would expect. Not in time, budget and quality. Lots of corruption and incompetence. It's chaos, it just looks different.
    - tormeh 10y ago
      It's the exception, though, rather than the rule. Prestigious architect/politician-driven projects always have problems and are, by default, plagued by incompetence. The only way to avoid cost overruns and delays is to not build them. There are problems with these kinds of projects even in Norway, which I suspect is the least corrupt country in existence. The BER is ridiculous, though. The specification, organization, execution and communication are all amazingly bad.
      - literallycancer 10y ago
        >Norway, which I suspect is the least corrupt country in existence You mean the country with the least perceived corruption?
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Total chaos. 15 years planning. More than ten years of construction. Maybe open 2018. Maybe. 7 years late. 7 billion Euro and rising. A public infrastructure project going late (even decades late) or not happing at all due to bad planning and over-budget is an everyday occurence in almost every country, from the US to China, and from Spain to Brazil. To give that one as an example of "total chaos" really makes the parent's point about Germany being particularly orderly.
    - allendoerfer 10y ago
      BER was delayed because of safety rules and an overengineered smoke exaustion system. In other countries there would not have been the safety checks and/or the inspectors would have been bribed. BER is ridiculous, but it increased my trust in public infrastructure. At least there is a system in place that rather wastes a few billions than to create a death-trap.

by ido 10y ago

lispm 10y ago

Have you ever seen an Indian company from the inside? The chance that the hierarchy in the company reflects the caste system is very high, even in IT companies. The caste system still imposes a very strict order into the society. Organization then is top down. Visit the Krishna temple in Bengaluru sometime. Nice long queues. People wait hours without any problem. There is a another, more expensive, but faster queue. Nobody complains. Huge crowds there. Nicely organized they move through the temple. India also has a powerful bureaucracy, it's just not that efficient and people don't seem to expect efficiency. You either follow the rules or pay around it. In Germany you have bureaucracy, but one would expect at least some efficiency - though the recent large scale projects like the Berlin airport or the Stuttgart train station show the opposite. At least in Hamburg the Elbphilharmonie concert hall has been finished recently - after years of delay - with rising costs of ten times the original estimate. So much for order and efficiency in Germany. One thing you should know about Germans: they complain. A lot. About everything. Sometimes it even helps.

ido 10y ago
Are you serious? Yes, exceptions exist. But they are rare. I spent a couple months in northern India (Delhi and some nearby regions) about a decade ago, chaos was everywhere, all the time. Just need to step outside to experience it.
- lispm 10y ago
  Check out the Berlin Brandenburg Airport project. Total chaos. 15 years planning. More than ten years of construction. Maybe open 2018. Maybe. 7 years late. 7 billion Euro and rising. Not the German orderly execution you would expect. Not in time, budget and quality. Lots of corruption and incompetence. It's chaos, it just looks different.
  - tormeh 10y ago
    It's the exception, though, rather than the rule. Prestigious architect/politician-driven projects always have problems and are, by default, plagued by incompetence. The only way to avoid cost overruns and delays is to not build them. There are problems with these kinds of projects even in Norway, which I suspect is the least corrupt country in existence. The BER is ridiculous, though. The specification, organization, execution and communication are all amazingly bad.
    - literallycancer 10y ago
      >Norway, which I suspect is the least corrupt country in existence You mean the country with the least perceived corruption?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Total chaos. 15 years planning. More than ten years of construction. Maybe open 2018. Maybe. 7 years late. 7 billion Euro and rising. A public infrastructure project going late (even decades late) or not happing at all due to bad planning and over-budget is an everyday occurence in almost every country, from the US to China, and from Spain to Brazil. To give that one as an example of "total chaos" really makes the parent's point about Germany being particularly orderly.
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    BER was delayed because of safety rules and an overengineered smoke exaustion system. In other countries there would not have been the safety checks and/or the inspectors would have been bribed. BER is ridiculous, but it increased my trust in public infrastructure. At least there is a system in place that rather wastes a few billions than to create a death-trap.