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Meh. There might be logical errors in Graham's essay, but this just looks like an angry and forceful attempt to rebut his ideas because the author doesn't agree

Meh. There might be logical errors in Graham's essay, but this just looks like an angry and forceful attempt to rebut his ideas because the author doesn't agree with ideas of free market economics etc. And secondly, I know this isn't the main point but, these "introversion explanations" are annoying and likely part of the reason the industry has problems with diversity. Looks to me like a lot of the people in the industry want to constantly propagate the idea that "the programmer" or "we the programmers" are utopian introvert nerds to anyone who would listen. Got me avoiding talking about what I do so I can have normal conversations about sports and politics with people working outside tech.

specialist 10y ago
Fascinating. I've been hearing a lot about "free market economies". Can you provide any examples? I'd like to learn more.
- euwhr132 10y ago
  I said "economics", as in the theory or ideas, not "economies", as in countries. What I was somewhat sloppily referring to was the classical liberal ideas based on writings of Adam Smith (who's mentioned in the article), David Hume, John Locke etc. As opposed to the Marxist view I guess. And I said it because the article argues somewhat (in)directly that management gets paid well because of position of power and luck, not merit, that free markets don't work, and throws around words like libertarianism, meritocracy etc., but makes no solid economic arguments, it's explained more from a point of populist left ideas based on my reading. Note that there's more than one competing idea here, and I personally don't necessarily agree with one single theory, but if you're interested in it in general here are some sources off the top of my head: Adam Smith - The Wealth of Nations [1] John Locke - Two Treatises of Government[2] Friedrich Hayek - The Road to Serfdom[3] david Hume - A Treatise of Human Nature[4] Austrian school of economics[5] Chicago school of economics[6] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom [4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Treatise_of_Human_Nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Treatise_of_Human_Nature [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics EDIT: Need to add at least Friedman I suppose. From here on out you can google classical liberalism, libertarianism, Age of Enlightenment, etc. And if you want different ideas, of which I guess the author would support some if he'd actually read / cited actual economic theory, Keynesian economics, Marxian economics, Economic interventionism etc... Milton Friedman - Capitalism and Freedom[7] [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom
- rukittenme 10y ago
  Are you looking for books or examples of societies with free markets? I'm not an expert but I believe you can research Austrian Economics, laissez-faire, and Milton Friendman. The deepest I went with the subject was "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell. I thought it was a good book and had compelling arguments. Its also very easy to read and American-centric so you have a lot of relatable examples.
czep 10y ago
> these "introversion explanations" are annoying and likely part of the reason the industry has problems with diversity. Excellent point, thank you. The changes we've seen in the industry even in the 5 years since I wrote this do suggest a declining relevance of the introverted programmer meme. I admit I'm stuck in a 1980s "we're all social outcasts" mindset which doesn't reflect the present day make-up of this varied industry. However, I think certain aspects of the metaphor remain intact. The work of programmers is introverted. The point was that the mental structures that attract programmers are the same ones that can lead to reductionist views of social, economic, and political matters. I've often marvelled at how easily some of the most brilliant engineers apply their ideas about computer systems to human systems, without the necessary due diligence. I'm not saying they all do this, just that the introversion tendency can explain how it happens.
- euwhr132 10y ago
  For all I know he might even be right about introversion. What I'm bothered about is that he makes a blanket statement about "the programmer". Would've been better to say, Graham was probably introvert, there's where his ideas come from. Why would "ability to create and inhabit a mental utopia devoid of the complications of external reality is a truly liberating experience" be limited to introvert programmers, like introversion is some kind of super power? Architects, painters, mathematicians, and many others are just as capable of abstract thought. Most mathematical and physical models could be called "mental utopias". As are financial or economic models for that matter. No one would claim that because an architect is able to draw a house made of ice cream cones or a physicist come up with a model where frictions is 0 he must be introverted though right? Why does everything concerned with programming need to be then? It's similar to claiming that programmers are good at programming because they're white, or male, or fat, or bald... And people thinking they know everything are common in every field, mechanical engineers, doctors, architects, you can find them wherever you go, this is not limited to software engineering.

specialist 10y ago

Fascinating. I've been hearing a lot about "free market economies". Can you provide any examples? I'd like to learn more.

euwhr132 10y ago
I said "economics", as in the theory or ideas, not "economies", as in countries. What I was somewhat sloppily referring to was the classical liberal ideas based on writings of Adam Smith (who's mentioned in the article), David Hume, John Locke etc. As opposed to the Marxist view I guess. And I said it because the article argues somewhat (in)directly that management gets paid well because of position of power and luck, not merit, that free markets don't work, and throws around words like libertarianism, meritocracy etc., but makes no solid economic arguments, it's explained more from a point of populist left ideas based on my reading. Note that there's more than one competing idea here, and I personally don't necessarily agree with one single theory, but if you're interested in it in general here are some sources off the top of my head: Adam Smith - The Wealth of Nations [1] John Locke - Two Treatises of Government[2] Friedrich Hayek - The Road to Serfdom[3] david Hume - A Treatise of Human Nature[4] Austrian school of economics[5] Chicago school of economics[6] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom [4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Treatise_of_Human_Nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Treatise_of_Human_Nature [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics EDIT: Need to add at least Friedman I suppose. From here on out you can google classical liberalism, libertarianism, Age of Enlightenment, etc. And if you want different ideas, of which I guess the author would support some if he'd actually read / cited actual economic theory, Keynesian economics, Marxian economics, Economic interventionism etc... Milton Friedman - Capitalism and Freedom[7] [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_and_Freedom
rukittenme 10y ago
Are you looking for books or examples of societies with free markets? I'm not an expert but I believe you can research Austrian Economics, laissez-faire, and Milton Friendman. The deepest I went with the subject was "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell. I thought it was a good book and had compelling arguments. Its also very easy to read and American-centric so you have a lot of relatable examples.

czep 10y ago

> these "introversion explanations" are annoying and likely part of the reason the industry has problems with diversity. Excellent point, thank you. The changes we've seen in the industry even in the 5 years since I wrote this do suggest a declining relevance of the introverted programmer meme. I admit I'm stuck in a 1980s "we're all social outcasts" mindset which doesn't reflect the present day make-up of this varied industry. However, I think certain aspects of the metaphor remain intact. The work of programmers is introverted. The point was that the mental structures that attract programmers are the same ones that can lead to reductionist views of social, economic, and political matters. I've often marvelled at how easily some of the most brilliant engineers apply their ideas about computer systems to human systems, without the necessary due diligence. I'm not saying they all do this, just that the introversion tendency can explain how it happens.

euwhr132 10y ago
For all I know he might even be right about introversion. What I'm bothered about is that he makes a blanket statement about "the programmer". Would've been better to say, Graham was probably introvert, there's where his ideas come from. Why would "ability to create and inhabit a mental utopia devoid of the complications of external reality is a truly liberating experience" be limited to introvert programmers, like introversion is some kind of super power? Architects, painters, mathematicians, and many others are just as capable of abstract thought. Most mathematical and physical models could be called "mental utopias". As are financial or economic models for that matter. No one would claim that because an architect is able to draw a house made of ice cream cones or a physicist come up with a model where frictions is 0 he must be introverted though right? Why does everything concerned with programming need to be then? It's similar to claiming that programmers are good at programming because they're white, or male, or fat, or bald... And people thinking they know everything are common in every field, mechanical engineers, doctors, architects, you can find them wherever you go, this is not limited to software engineering.