4 ms·

I've been interviewing junior/intermediate frontend candidates for the past few months now. 90% don't use any test tools, and their biggest complaint is their c

by pwython 10y ago

I've been interviewing junior/intermediate frontend candidates for the past few months now. 90% don't use any test tools, and their biggest complaint is their current employer forcing a new framework/library for the sake of being bleeding edge. While interesting to them, it turns out most of them really just want to see what they can do with vanilla JS.

lisivka 10y ago
Why you expect that junior developer (someone with very little or no development experience) will use a test tool or any other development technique? I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only.
- devwastaken 10y ago
  >Why you expect that junior developer (someone with very little or no development experience) I don't think thats the definition of a junior developer. Test tools are apart of building software, you should be hiring devs that have created projects that use tests of some sort, if not with the technology you're using. >I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only. I don't know how you can have little to no dev experience and know how to program.
  - lisivka 10y ago
    Development and programming require different skills. Developer need to know development cycle, automated testing, continuous integration, software life cycle, ticketing systems, source control systems, branching and merging, cooperating, etc. Programmer need to know programming languages, patterns, algorithms, computer internals, effectiveness, profiling, debugging, etc. Junior developer (in software filed)) has no or little experience in development, so junior developer is almost equal to a programmer, which causes lot of confusion.
    - blablabla123 10y ago
      I think this distinction is a bit ancient...
- intrasight 10y ago
  Because we assume that developers are trained professionals, presumably with a CS or software engineering (or both) degrees, and that they've been properly trained in software development - which puts testing front and center.
  - nxc18 10y ago
    Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with software testing. Your software engineering classes will teach students about unit tests, but not much more. If by 'testing' you really mean 'unit testing', as I suspect most junior engineers who claim testing experience do, then hope is already lost. The one saving grace is that there is enough churn in webdev that nothing lasts long enough to reveal how fragile it is.
    - intrasight 10y ago
      Not if they take a good class in Test-driven development (TDD) - which I would recommend to students. The "science" behind it will outlive the practice churn.
      - lisivka 10y ago
        Of course, if the will take a good class in test driven DEVELOPMENT, they will be developers. Development (problem solving with goal to create and support a product) is not same as programming (creating instruction for computer to do something).
      - theonething 10y ago
        Any recommendations for good TDD classes?
  - sngz 10y ago
    you're part of the problem
- sporkenfang 10y ago
  Really? Where I work we expect knowing how to test code and being careful and incremental in our junior candidates more than anything. It's easier to teach someone how to code better than let them send anything to production with 0 tests.
- onion2k 10y ago
  I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only. That is very often the case. It needs to change. Testing is a part of software development, and anyone who writes software should be aware of it. I feel the same way about documentation. And requirements. You can't write good software without knowledge of the processes that surround development. It isn't enough just to be able to write great code.
  - cs02rm0 10y ago
    Maybe. Personally, I've come to think that you need the right tool for the right job. If you spend more time writing / running tests that you would fixing the bugs they find, you may be doing it wrong. If you're writing documentation no one will read, you may be doing it wrong. They clearly do have a place though. As for maintaining a set of requirements... I appreciate there must be some environments where what is required is well understood and relatively stable. I'm not quite sure if I should look forward to working in such a place or not!
    - wott 10y ago
      > If you spend more time writing / running tests that you would fixing the bugs they find, you may be doing it wrong. Why should those 2 activities be compared? They do not compare: writing/running tests is about discovering the bug, not fixing it. You still need to fix it after you have done your testing activity. The time spent writing/running tests should better be compared to the time spent in bug discovery without tests, i.e. how much you value the fact that your users are going to undergo bugs, what the consequences of the users hitting bugs are, what the process to report them is, etc.
      - cs02rm0 10y ago
        You're right, unless you're at an extreme (zero automated testing, zero bugs found in the wild) it's much more nuanced as to what the balance is (or should be), but there is a balance.
    - onion2k 10y ago

by pwython 10y ago

lisivka 10y ago

Why you expect that junior developer (someone with very little or no development experience) will use a test tool or any other development technique? I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only.

devwastaken 10y ago
>Why you expect that junior developer (someone with very little or no development experience) I don't think thats the definition of a junior developer. Test tools are apart of building software, you should be hiring devs that have created projects that use tests of some sort, if not with the technology you're using. >I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only. I don't know how you can have little to no dev experience and know how to program.
- lisivka 10y ago
  Development and programming require different skills. Developer need to know development cycle, automated testing, continuous integration, software life cycle, ticketing systems, source control systems, branching and merging, cooperating, etc. Programmer need to know programming languages, patterns, algorithms, computer internals, effectiveness, profiling, debugging, etc. Junior developer (in software filed)) has no or little experience in development, so junior developer is almost equal to a programmer, which causes lot of confusion.
  - blablabla123 10y ago
    I think this distinction is a bit ancient...
intrasight 10y ago
Because we assume that developers are trained professionals, presumably with a CS or software engineering (or both) degrees, and that they've been properly trained in software development - which puts testing front and center.
- nxc18 10y ago
  Computer Science has absolutely nothing to do with software testing. Your software engineering classes will teach students about unit tests, but not much more. If by 'testing' you really mean 'unit testing', as I suspect most junior engineers who claim testing experience do, then hope is already lost. The one saving grace is that there is enough churn in webdev that nothing lasts long enough to reveal how fragile it is.
  - intrasight 10y ago
    Not if they take a good class in Test-driven development (TDD) - which I would recommend to students. The "science" behind it will outlive the practice churn.
    - lisivka 10y ago
      Of course, if the will take a good class in test driven DEVELOPMENT, they will be developers. Development (problem solving with goal to create and support a product) is not same as programming (creating instruction for computer to do something).
    - theonething 10y ago
      Any recommendations for good TDD classes?
- sngz 10y ago
  you're part of the problem
sporkenfang 10y ago
Really? Where I work we expect knowing how to test code and being careful and incremental in our junior candidates more than anything. It's easier to teach someone how to code better than let them send anything to production with 0 tests.
onion2k 10y ago
I expect that junior developer in software field should be able to program only. That is very often the case. It needs to change. Testing is a part of software development, and anyone who writes software should be aware of it. I feel the same way about documentation. And requirements. You can't write good software without knowledge of the processes that surround development. It isn't enough just to be able to write great code.
- cs02rm0 10y ago
  Maybe. Personally, I've come to think that you need the right tool for the right job. If you spend more time writing / running tests that you would fixing the bugs they find, you may be doing it wrong. If you're writing documentation no one will read, you may be doing it wrong. They clearly do have a place though. As for maintaining a set of requirements... I appreciate there must be some environments where what is required is well understood and relatively stable. I'm not quite sure if I should look forward to working in such a place or not!
  - wott 10y ago
    > If you spend more time writing / running tests that you would fixing the bugs they find, you may be doing it wrong. Why should those 2 activities be compared? They do not compare: writing/running tests is about discovering the bug, not fixing it. You still need to fix it after you have done your testing activity. The time spent writing/running tests should better be compared to the time spent in bug discovery without tests, i.e. how much you value the fact that your users are going to undergo bugs, what the consequences of the users hitting bugs are, what the process to report them is, etc.
    - cs02rm0 10y ago
      You're right, unless you're at an extreme (zero automated testing, zero bugs found in the wild) it's much more nuanced as to what the balance is (or should be), but there is a balance.
  - onion2k 10y ago