3 ms·

I'm all for capturing externalities in the form of consumption-based incentives, but at some point you need to draw a line for added benefit/complexity. Yes, th

by lend000 10y ago

I'm all for capturing externalities in the form of consumption-based incentives, but at some point you need to draw a line for added benefit/complexity. Yes, they do have relatively high gasoline taxes, but perhaps not high enough. Theoretically, perhaps the cost should be such that the government can use the revenue to "undo" the damage (via carbon capture + ventilation infrastructure in congested areas, for example). If there was truly a compelling case that city congestion, per liter, is so much worse: just levy an additional city petrol gasoline tax. Similar to city vs state sales taxes.

alkonaut 10y ago
Sweden is a large and sparsely populated country. In the north, many have 1h, 60 mile commutes. In Stockholm a commute might be 1h and 10 miles. There is pretty stiff opposition to raised gasoline taxes because it is seen as an unfair on rural people. It's also regressive since income is much lower in rural areas. If "city pollution" and "congestion" are the externalities then congestion taxes actually make more sense - and are extremely popular compared to gasoline tax. City gasoline taxes would make sense, but they don't allow hour by hour control of congestion. I don't work in the city but I can drive in "for free" e.g late in the evening.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  I'd be surprised if you could commute 100km in one hour on ordinary rural roads. I have a colleague who commutes from Åmot to Drammen and he takes about an hour and its only about 60km and that's pretty good roads most of the way. I know Swedish roads are often better than Norwegian ones but are they really that much better? Or do Swedes just drive a lot faster?
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    Roads are certainly straighter and wider in rural Sweden than Rural Norway, because of the geography (topography rather perhaps). In Norway you are never far from the next tunnel. If you live next to e.g. The E4 that spans the length of Sweden (most people in the northern 2/3 do) the speed limit is 110/120 for the most part so at least in summer conditions you have no problem doing well over 100km/h since there is so little traffic. If you have a long commute in rural Sweden it's almost certainly mostly freeway driving in a very flat landscape. https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:E4,_Nyk%C3%B6ping_2009.jpg https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:E4,_Nyk%C3%B6ping_2009.j... Obviously you are driving much slower at the beginning/end of such a commute, but normally you can do it without being slowed down by traffic. On more normal rural roads and in winter conditions you might be lucky to do 70 or 80 (90-100 on the largest roads). It's actually an interesting difference between city and country - in rural areas we always talk about distances in km (since they translate directly to driving time with an expectation of doing 80-100km/h no matter where you are going, since traffic or road quality is almost never a factor) whereas in cities a distance is almost always given as a driving time.
    - kwhitefoot 10y ago
      True about the tunnels but in fact they generally make things better not worse. The problem with roads in Norway is that there is almost always a hill of granite rock or a lake or fjord in the way. My 22km commute to Drammen hugs the edge of the fjord and the longest straight is probably not more than about 300m.
  - xxs 10y ago
    Swedes do overspeed a lot more than their Norwegian neighbors. More speed cameras in Norway as well. Even the speed limit is lower (80km/h) in Norway (vs. 90km/h in most of the EU) Source: a recent (last May-June) road trip Stockholm <-> Bergen with quite a bit of rural/mountain exploration.
geon 10y ago
> city petrol gasoline tax Higher tax for gasoline sold inside the city? A lot of people commute, and would just fuel up outside the city limit. Others would make an extra trip out of the city only for that.
- lend000 10y ago
  > Higher tax for gasoline sold inside the city? I'm all for taxes that attempt to follow a mathematical distribution, which makes the most sense in such a scenario. This would have to be a "federal government" thing, which on top of the pollution tax (equal everywhere) adds a congestion tax that increases as you approach dense city areas, such that it's probably not worth it to drive more to fill up the tank. But no system will be perfect so it's best to minimize complexity in my opinion.

by lend000 10y ago

alkonaut 10y ago

Sweden is a large and sparsely populated country. In the north, many have 1h, 60 mile commutes. In Stockholm a commute might be 1h and 10 miles. There is pretty stiff opposition to raised gasoline taxes because it is seen as an unfair on rural people. It's also regressive since income is much lower in rural areas. If "city pollution" and "congestion" are the externalities then congestion taxes actually make more sense - and are extremely popular compared to gasoline tax. City gasoline taxes would make sense, but they don't allow hour by hour control of congestion. I don't work in the city but I can drive in "for free" e.g late in the evening.

kwhitefoot 10y ago
I'd be surprised if you could commute 100km in one hour on ordinary rural roads. I have a colleague who commutes from Åmot to Drammen and he takes about an hour and its only about 60km and that's pretty good roads most of the way. I know Swedish roads are often better than Norwegian ones but are they really that much better? Or do Swedes just drive a lot faster?
- alkonaut 10y ago
  Roads are certainly straighter and wider in rural Sweden than Rural Norway, because of the geography (topography rather perhaps). In Norway you are never far from the next tunnel. If you live next to e.g. The E4 that spans the length of Sweden (most people in the northern 2/3 do) the speed limit is 110/120 for the most part so at least in summer conditions you have no problem doing well over 100km/h since there is so little traffic. If you have a long commute in rural Sweden it's almost certainly mostly freeway driving in a very flat landscape. https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:E4,_Nyk%C3%B6ping_2009.jpg https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:E4,_Nyk%C3%B6ping_2009.j... Obviously you are driving much slower at the beginning/end of such a commute, but normally you can do it without being slowed down by traffic. On more normal rural roads and in winter conditions you might be lucky to do 70 or 80 (90-100 on the largest roads). It's actually an interesting difference between city and country - in rural areas we always talk about distances in km (since they translate directly to driving time with an expectation of doing 80-100km/h no matter where you are going, since traffic or road quality is almost never a factor) whereas in cities a distance is almost always given as a driving time.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    True about the tunnels but in fact they generally make things better not worse. The problem with roads in Norway is that there is almost always a hill of granite rock or a lake or fjord in the way. My 22km commute to Drammen hugs the edge of the fjord and the longest straight is probably not more than about 300m.
- xxs 10y ago
  Swedes do overspeed a lot more than their Norwegian neighbors. More speed cameras in Norway as well. Even the speed limit is lower (80km/h) in Norway (vs. 90km/h in most of the EU) Source: a recent (last May-June) road trip Stockholm <-> Bergen with quite a bit of rural/mountain exploration.

geon 10y ago

> city petrol gasoline tax Higher tax for gasoline sold inside the city? A lot of people commute, and would just fuel up outside the city limit. Others would make an extra trip out of the city only for that.

lend000 10y ago
> Higher tax for gasoline sold inside the city? I'm all for taxes that attempt to follow a mathematical distribution, which makes the most sense in such a scenario. This would have to be a "federal government" thing, which on top of the pollution tax (equal everywhere) adds a congestion tax that increases as you approach dense city areas, such that it's probably not worth it to drive more to fill up the tank. But no system will be perfect so it's best to minimize complexity in my opinion.