8 ms·

Hello, Lenin? Berlin, 1997

67 points by benbreen 10y ago

tyingq 10y ago
"The Metropol club literally did not have a protocol for lost coat-check tickets, because literally nobody had ever done it before in the history of the Metropol club." I ran into similar things living in Germany. I went to the Allkauf store just to look around, only to discover there was no way to leave other than the checkout lines, which were very long. So, I (discreetly, I thought) jumped the turnstyle that lets people in so I could exit. There was immediate pandemonium, with security people coming my way, disapproving looks from shoppers, and so on. I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. The posted story seems to suggest it comes directly from WWII, since the East Germans don't seem to have the same attitude.
- Merem 10y ago
  Why didn't you just pass the checkout line? If you won't buy anything, you don't have to wait. So it's not surprising you got that reaction...which would be the same, regardless of whether you are in the Western or Eastern part of Germany.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    There was no exit, the people waiting in the checkout lines blocked the only possible exit.
    - the-dude 10y ago
      I just assume you are an idiot. Next!
      - dang 10y ago
        We ban accounts that comment like this. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Why didn't you just pass the checkout line? Because those lines are obviously filled with people with stuff on their hands or carts, blocking easy access? And because in 99% of the world the purpose of such lines are just to pay, and you can just walk out as you came in if you didn't buy anything...
    - Merem 10y ago
      Those are wide enough for a shopping cart and a person next to it, so one can pass the line decently fine. And if people see someone who isn't buying anything, they even make sure not to block him/her. The OP later said in a different post that it was "very narrow". I've never seen a supermarket like that before but then again, "Allkauf" stopped existing like 20 years ago and who knows how long before that he went there. The entry is clearly marked though and it is obvious that it doesn't double as an exit. So arguing that it's different in 99% of the world doesn't score a point.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >Those are wide enough for a shopping cart and a person next to it, so one can pass the line decently fine. Doesn't look like we use the same definition of "wide enough": http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CRCY5X/people-at-the-checkout-in-a-lidl-supermarket-CRCY5X.jpg http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CRCY5X/people-at-the-checkout-in-a-... But even so, why "pass the line"? That's what's usually frowned upon in the rest of the world, not getting out without passing through the cashier line if you haven't bought anything. >The entry is clearly marked though and it is obvious that it doesn't double as an exit. So arguing that it's different in 99% of the world doesn't score a point. It's probably more about "you're doing it wrong", get on with the rest of the world.
        Merem 10y ago
        The perspective in that picture isn't exactly a good one. But there should be enough space to pass by them on the right side. This one is good and shows what I mean with "shopping cart + person". http://www.lebensmittelzeitung.net/gallery/media/156/4733-detailp.jpeg http://www.lebensmittelzeitung.net/gallery/media/156/4733-de... Is it? It's a line that's not relevant to you (it's for paying, not for getting out), so I don't see why one shouldn't just pass it?
- lispm 10y ago
  If you don't buy anything, just go past the queue at the checkout line. > There was immediate pandemonium, Try to sit in the front seat of a cab in the US, which would be typical in Germany - in the US the cab driver will yell at you, or show his weapon. Traffic control by the police. Try to reach into your pocket. Immediate pandemonium. In the US, not Germany. Each country/region has its rules. You have learned yours. In a different country there are other rules. Surprise: Germany has other rules than the US. Drinking alcohol in public places? In the US? Not really. In Bavaria you would drink beer at work. Driving speed limits? Strict in the US. Welcome to the German autobahn. To make it possible that you can drive without speed limit in parts of the autobahn, you have to follow other rules - like using a car that actually is safe at higher speeds. > I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, That this is specially German is a myth. It's also a widespread myth that this is everywhere in German society. Take for example childhood: much less strict organized than in many other countries. Children walk alone to school, take the bus, the train. They are much less drilled than in some other countries. > rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. The posted story seems to suggest it comes directly from WWII, Order comes from the Kaiserreich. Local order came before the Reich. Every country has its order system, you have to detect it. In the UK you see the people neatly line up at the bus stop. There is a lot of order in public transport. Even more so in Japan. In the US the access to public underground transport is through gates. Something you would not find in Germany - access is open. As a German I find it very depressing to go through steel gates into the public transport system in the US. >since the East Germans don't seem to have the same attitude. They have. But it shows in slightly different things.
  - ido 10y ago
    It's true that Germany is not the only "orderly" society, in your example the US and the UK are also such (to varying degrees, but they are all well on the "organized" side of the spectrum) - as are almost any in the northern parts of Europe & some former British colonies such as Australia or Canada. But I invite you to spend any amount of time in any Indian-subcontinent country and emerge with the conclusion that it's just as orderly as Germany only in a different manner (and for less extreme examples try Turkey, (southern) Italy or Israel).
- the-dude 10y ago
  I wonder in which country this would have ended well. edit: what do you think is the intended function of the turnstile?
  - rjeli 10y ago
    In San Francisco, I regularly watch people jump the turnstile in front of crowds and usually an apathetic BART operator and no one cares.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    There was no path to exit other than waiting in line behind shoppers waiting to pay for their items.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - lispm 10y ago
      Then you have to ask these people to let you pass. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes. Usually one would enter such shop only if you actually knew what to buy. But if you don't find what you were looking for, then one would leave it without buying anything. Happened to me too. Some people are too shy to ask people to let them pass, others not.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        It's hard to explain, but assume I'm not an idiot. The lines were very long and the lane was very narrow. The potential chaos of asking all those people to move not just left or right, but all the way back out is what prompted me to jump the turnstyle.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >Then you have to ask these people to let you pass. Which is not obvious. And is not the case in most other places in the world I've known.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- TomMarius 10y ago
  This is normal in most of Central Europe.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. It didn't start with Hitler. There are descriptions of such attitudes all the way back to the 19th century (that I'm aware of) and possible further back.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Ah, no...I meant right at the end of WWII, going on the writers claim that East Germans didn't follow the stereotype. Wasn't trying to attribute anything to Hitler.
- freeflight 10y ago
  >I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. Supposedly a lot of that dates back to the Kingdom of Prussia and it's "Preußische Tugenden" coined by King Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues The Teutonic Order (Deutscher Orden) had very similar virtues and predate the Kingdom of Prussia by another couple of centuries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order As such it's an attitude that's not exclusive to any part of Germany neither East nor West.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  I bet it's older. Lenin told a story about German communists who wouldn't leave a railway station because there was no one to check their tickets.
rmetzler 10y ago
I was born in 1980 in East Berlin, seeing the photo and reading the first paragraphs gave me goosebumps. “Gibt’s doch gar nicht” is usually meant ironically. If you loose your coat-check ticket, you're supposed to describe where your stuff is and maybe what's in one of the pockets, so they are sure you don't steal it. But to be fair, even little kids in Germany learn they have to store there stuff at a place where it should be impossible to loose. Even more when it is important like your passport. There is also a system in place where you can throw stuff you found (like wallets, id cards, etc) in the yellow Post boxes and it will be sorted in Bonn and mailed to the right people.
- lispm 10y ago
  A German co-worker was in Paris recently. Her wallet was stolen while she was in a train station. One or two days later she was informed by the Police that the wallet had been found. The money was gone, but she got back all the rest (credit cards, id card, ...).
  - netrus 10y ago
    Happened to me in Germany as well. I always wonder about the incentive to the bad guy, but it is really great considering the hassel of getting all the new documents is far worse than the loss of the money I usually carry with me. The police even adviced me to wait some days before starting to apply for new documents, because this happens in most cases.
    - poizan42 10y ago
      > I always wonder about the incentive to the bad guy People who are desperate, e.g. drug addicts, but feel bad about it? Might also just be that the theif threw the wallet away after emptying it for money, and someone else found it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
JoeDaDude 10y ago
The article title is a play on the film name "Goodbye Lenin", a comedy about the fall of the East German state and reunification. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/
freeflight 10y ago
While there's a certain truth to the statement that Neo-Nazis are somewhat more common in East Germany, that's not really the whole story. West Germany also has its fair share of Neo-Nazis and closet racists, the biggest difference being that West Germans had a couple of decades more time to "tone it down" compared to East Germans. In West Germany many people, to this day, have very negative sentiments towards Eastern Europeans, Eastern Germans included. They are just more careful about how and when they voice them, something the East Germans haven't quite mastered to the same level yet. Mostly due to an element of curiosity because "darker skinned people" simply had not been that common in the Soviet states, so they are rather blunt on such topics in comparison to West Germans who have learned to "hide" it a little bit better.

67 points by benbreen 10y ago

"The Metropol club literally did not have a protocol for lost coat-check tickets, because literally nobody had ever done it before in the history of the Metropol club." I ran into similar things living in Germany. I went to the Allkauf store just to look around, only to discover there was no way to leave other than the checkout lines, which were very long. So, I (discreetly, I thought) jumped the turnstyle that lets people in so I could exit. There was immediate pandemonium, with security people coming my way, disapproving looks from shoppers, and so on. I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. The posted story seems to suggest it comes directly from WWII, since the East Germans don't seem to have the same attitude.

Merem 10y ago
Why didn't you just pass the checkout line? If you won't buy anything, you don't have to wait. So it's not surprising you got that reaction...which would be the same, regardless of whether you are in the Western or Eastern part of Germany.
- tyingq 10y ago
  There was no exit, the people waiting in the checkout lines blocked the only possible exit.
  - the-dude 10y ago
    I just assume you are an idiot. Next!
    - dang 10y ago
      We ban accounts that comment like this. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Why didn't you just pass the checkout line? Because those lines are obviously filled with people with stuff on their hands or carts, blocking easy access? And because in 99% of the world the purpose of such lines are just to pay, and you can just walk out as you came in if you didn't buy anything...
  - Merem 10y ago
    Those are wide enough for a shopping cart and a person next to it, so one can pass the line decently fine. And if people see someone who isn't buying anything, they even make sure not to block him/her. The OP later said in a different post that it was "very narrow". I've never seen a supermarket like that before but then again, "Allkauf" stopped existing like 20 years ago and who knows how long before that he went there. The entry is clearly marked though and it is obvious that it doesn't double as an exit. So arguing that it's different in 99% of the world doesn't score a point.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Those are wide enough for a shopping cart and a person next to it, so one can pass the line decently fine. Doesn't look like we use the same definition of "wide enough": http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CRCY5X/people-at-the-checkout-in-a-lidl-supermarket-CRCY5X.jpg http://c8.alamy.com/comp/CRCY5X/people-at-the-checkout-in-a-... But even so, why "pass the line"? That's what's usually frowned upon in the rest of the world, not getting out without passing through the cashier line if you haven't bought anything. >The entry is clearly marked though and it is obvious that it doesn't double as an exit. So arguing that it's different in 99% of the world doesn't score a point. It's probably more about "you're doing it wrong", get on with the rest of the world.
      - Merem 10y ago
        The perspective in that picture isn't exactly a good one. But there should be enough space to pass by them on the right side. This one is good and shows what I mean with "shopping cart + person". http://www.lebensmittelzeitung.net/gallery/media/156/4733-detailp.jpeg http://www.lebensmittelzeitung.net/gallery/media/156/4733-de... Is it? It's a line that's not relevant to you (it's for paying, not for getting out), so I don't see why one shouldn't just pass it?
lispm 10y ago
If you don't buy anything, just go past the queue at the checkout line. > There was immediate pandemonium, Try to sit in the front seat of a cab in the US, which would be typical in Germany - in the US the cab driver will yell at you, or show his weapon. Traffic control by the police. Try to reach into your pocket. Immediate pandemonium. In the US, not Germany. Each country/region has its rules. You have learned yours. In a different country there are other rules. Surprise: Germany has other rules than the US. Drinking alcohol in public places? In the US? Not really. In Bavaria you would drink beer at work. Driving speed limits? Strict in the US. Welcome to the German autobahn. To make it possible that you can drive without speed limit in parts of the autobahn, you have to follow other rules - like using a car that actually is safe at higher speeds. > I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, That this is specially German is a myth. It's also a widespread myth that this is everywhere in German society. Take for example childhood: much less strict organized than in many other countries. Children walk alone to school, take the bus, the train. They are much less drilled than in some other countries. > rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. The posted story seems to suggest it comes directly from WWII, Order comes from the Kaiserreich. Local order came before the Reich. Every country has its order system, you have to detect it. In the UK you see the people neatly line up at the bus stop. There is a lot of order in public transport. Even more so in Japan. In the US the access to public underground transport is through gates. Something you would not find in Germany - access is open. As a German I find it very depressing to go through steel gates into the public transport system in the US. >since the East Germans don't seem to have the same attitude. They have. But it shows in slightly different things.
- ido 10y ago
  It's true that Germany is not the only "orderly" society, in your example the US and the UK are also such (to varying degrees, but they are all well on the "organized" side of the spectrum) - as are almost any in the northern parts of Europe & some former British colonies such as Australia or Canada. But I invite you to spend any amount of time in any Indian-subcontinent country and emerge with the conclusion that it's just as orderly as Germany only in a different manner (and for less extreme examples try Turkey, (southern) Italy or Israel).
the-dude 10y ago
I wonder in which country this would have ended well. edit: what do you think is the intended function of the turnstile?
- rjeli 10y ago
  In San Francisco, I regularly watch people jump the turnstile in front of crowds and usually an apathetic BART operator and no one cares.
- tyingq 10y ago
  There was no path to exit other than waiting in line behind shoppers waiting to pay for their items.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - lispm 10y ago
    Then you have to ask these people to let you pass. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes. Usually one would enter such shop only if you actually knew what to buy. But if you don't find what you were looking for, then one would leave it without buying anything. Happened to me too. Some people are too shy to ask people to let them pass, others not.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      It's hard to explain, but assume I'm not an idiot. The lines were very long and the lane was very narrow. The potential chaos of asking all those people to move not just left or right, but all the way back out is what prompted me to jump the turnstyle.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Then you have to ask these people to let you pass. Which is not obvious. And is not the case in most other places in the world I've known.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
TomMarius 10y ago
This is normal in most of Central Europe.
coldtea 10y ago
>I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. It didn't start with Hitler. There are descriptions of such attitudes all the way back to the 19th century (that I'm aware of) and possible further back.
- tyingq 10y ago
  Ah, no...I meant right at the end of WWII, going on the writers claim that East Germans didn't follow the stereotype. Wasn't trying to attribute anything to Hitler.
freeflight 10y ago
>I'm curious where the German propensity for strict organization, rule following, etc, comes from, and how far back it goes. Supposedly a lot of that dates back to the Kingdom of Prussia and it's "Preußische Tugenden" coined by King Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues The Teutonic Order (Deutscher Orden) had very similar virtues and predate the Kingdom of Prussia by another couple of centuries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order As such it's an attitude that's not exclusive to any part of Germany neither East nor West.
maverick_iceman 10y ago
I bet it's older. Lenin told a story about German communists who wouldn't leave a railway station because there was no one to check their tickets.

rmetzler 10y ago

I was born in 1980 in East Berlin, seeing the photo and reading the first paragraphs gave me goosebumps. “Gibt’s doch gar nicht” is usually meant ironically. If you loose your coat-check ticket, you're supposed to describe where your stuff is and maybe what's in one of the pockets, so they are sure you don't steal it. But to be fair, even little kids in Germany learn they have to store there stuff at a place where it should be impossible to loose. Even more when it is important like your passport. There is also a system in place where you can throw stuff you found (like wallets, id cards, etc) in the yellow Post boxes and it will be sorted in Bonn and mailed to the right people.

lispm 10y ago
A German co-worker was in Paris recently. Her wallet was stolen while she was in a train station. One or two days later she was informed by the Police that the wallet had been found. The money was gone, but she got back all the rest (credit cards, id card, ...).
- netrus 10y ago
  Happened to me in Germany as well. I always wonder about the incentive to the bad guy, but it is really great considering the hassel of getting all the new documents is far worse than the loss of the money I usually carry with me. The police even adviced me to wait some days before starting to apply for new documents, because this happens in most cases.
  - poizan42 10y ago
    > I always wonder about the incentive to the bad guy People who are desperate, e.g. drug addicts, but feel bad about it? Might also just be that the theif threw the wallet away after emptying it for money, and someone else found it.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

JoeDaDude 10y ago

The article title is a play on the film name "Goodbye Lenin", a comedy about the fall of the East German state and reunification. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/

freeflight 10y ago

While there's a certain truth to the statement that Neo-Nazis are somewhat more common in East Germany, that's not really the whole story. West Germany also has its fair share of Neo-Nazis and closet racists, the biggest difference being that West Germans had a couple of decades more time to "tone it down" compared to East Germans. In West Germany many people, to this day, have very negative sentiments towards Eastern Europeans, Eastern Germans included. They are just more careful about how and when they voice them, something the East Germans haven't quite mastered to the same level yet. Mostly due to an element of curiosity because "darker skinned people" simply had not been that common in the Soviet states, so they are rather blunt on such topics in comparison to West Germans who have learned to "hide" it a little bit better.