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I would prefer what you described, and I imagine it feels good to verbalize it. However, demanding that the President do anything simply isn't reality. If I am

I would prefer what you described, and I imagine it feels good to verbalize it. However, demanding that the President do anything simply isn't reality. If I am reading him correctly, I agree with fullshark, in that we are better off if intelligent, rational people are advising the President. Kalanick's withdrawal was news to me, and I find that disappointing.

kafkaesq 10y ago
However, demanding that the President do anything simply isn't reality. It's OK if we differ on whether one should attempt to constructively influence the current administration, or not. But I have to strongly disagree with you on the other half of what you're saying. If your rights are being trampled, or the physical well-being of your loved ones is being directly threatened -- as is the case with those being denied access to health care, or who find their long and meticulously planned applications for asylum are suddenly throttled -- then yes, demanding that their rights and physical well-being be protected is the only responsible and dignified course of action you have available. And on top of that -- it's the only way people have ever won and safeguarded their rights, throughout all of history.
- endswapper 10y ago
  That's simply not true. The voice of the people is powerful and important, but demands are not and should not be how we win or protect rights. Constructive discourse with rational minds wins and protects. Demands, without discourse, context or leverage, can be counter productive and can completely derail productive discourse.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    Constructive discourse with rational minds wins and protects. Do you suppose that the LGBT community ultimately won their rights through a patient campaign of engaging their opposition through debate clubs, paid advertisements and letters to the editor? Or through actions like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots The moment a police baton cracks your head is the moment you can be pretty sure that the time for "constructive discourse" -- and for patiently "asking" for your rights -- has ended.
    - endswapper 10y ago
      The LGBT community have won partial rights and their pursuit of rights is necessary and ongoing. I'll point to silly, counter-productive efforts in North Carolina for an obvious example of why it is necessary and ongoing[0]. Repealing the Defense of Marriage Act[1] and granting rights for same sex marriage[2] has done more for the LGBT community than any riot, or act of violence, or demand, ever has, or ever will. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathroom_bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathroom_bill [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act#Repeal_proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act#Repeal... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_Unite...
      - kafkaesq 10y ago
        Agreed, riots aren't necessary anymore -- but that's only because you're fast-forwarding by nearly 50 years. The anti-DoMA movement, the bathroom bills and all the other modern wins are but the culmination of a decades-long process. The prevailing opinion on the LGBT community is that they never would have gotten anywhere near to where they are now (or at least never would have without an unacceptably long wait) without Stonewall (or some similarly cathartic moment). That is, without a moment when those affected came forward to not just demand, but to claim and assert their rights when the situation called for it.

kafkaesq 10y ago

However, demanding that the President do anything simply isn't reality. It's OK if we differ on whether one should attempt to constructively influence the current administration, or not. But I have to strongly disagree with you on the other half of what you're saying. If your rights are being trampled, or the physical well-being of your loved ones is being directly threatened -- as is the case with those being denied access to health care, or who find their long and meticulously planned applications for asylum are suddenly throttled -- then yes, demanding that their rights and physical well-being be protected is the only responsible and dignified course of action you have available. And on top of that -- it's the only way people have ever won and safeguarded their rights, throughout all of history.

endswapper 10y ago
That's simply not true. The voice of the people is powerful and important, but demands are not and should not be how we win or protect rights. Constructive discourse with rational minds wins and protects. Demands, without discourse, context or leverage, can be counter productive and can completely derail productive discourse.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  Constructive discourse with rational minds wins and protects. Do you suppose that the LGBT community ultimately won their rights through a patient campaign of engaging their opposition through debate clubs, paid advertisements and letters to the editor? Or through actions like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots The moment a police baton cracks your head is the moment you can be pretty sure that the time for "constructive discourse" -- and for patiently "asking" for your rights -- has ended.
  - endswapper 10y ago
    The LGBT community have won partial rights and their pursuit of rights is necessary and ongoing. I'll point to silly, counter-productive efforts in North Carolina for an obvious example of why it is necessary and ongoing[0]. Repealing the Defense of Marriage Act[1] and granting rights for same sex marriage[2] has done more for the LGBT community than any riot, or act of violence, or demand, ever has, or ever will. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathroom_bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathroom_bill [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act#Repeal_proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act#Repeal... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_Unite...
    - kafkaesq 10y ago
      Agreed, riots aren't necessary anymore -- but that's only because you're fast-forwarding by nearly 50 years. The anti-DoMA movement, the bathroom bills and all the other modern wins are but the culmination of a decades-long process. The prevailing opinion on the LGBT community is that they never would have gotten anywhere near to where they are now (or at least never would have without an unacceptably long wait) without Stonewall (or some similarly cathartic moment). That is, without a moment when those affected came forward to not just demand, but to claim and assert their rights when the situation called for it.