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Hi, I tried to read the two scientific articles present in that list of sources (the rest is opinion pieces and discussion related to the articles); unfortunate

Hi, I tried to read the two scientific articles present in that list of sources (the rest is opinion pieces and discussion related to the articles); unfortunately, the link to the first one (the study) is broken (as well as some of the others). As for the second article, please correct me if I am wrong, but from skimming it I believe that first of all, it speaks of diversity in knowledge and problem solving approaches, rather than race, gender, age and other identifying features. In fact it remarks the following: "The claim that perspectives and heuristics may be influenced by race, geography, gender, or age has much to recommend it, as does the claim that perspectives and tools are shaped by experiences, training, and preferences. However, even when applying our result to those cases when identity diversity has been shown to correlate with functional diversity, we need to be acutely aware that identity-diverse groups often have more conflict, more problems with communication, and less mutual respect and trust among members" The other problem I see is that this model (from what I gathered) translates into software development terms as something like: 10 top C# developers are not necessarily better at writing a C# backend than, say a group of, 5 very good C# developers, 2 top C developers, 1 very good Python developer and 2 top Haskell developers. Rather than mix and matching experienced and junior devs because the juniors are more "diverse" in one aspect; as is encouraged and practiced by diversity evangelists. This makes me further cement my position about the diversity question, and that is to just let people find their vocation on their own; the Internet has solved information access, we live in mostly free societies and we can learn on our own. Introduce people to CS? Absolutely. Artificially incentivize career choice by changing hiring practices? Bad idea.

fmitchell0 10y ago
I didn't realize the links had expired. Here is a page linked to the research and modeling I ascribe in my talk: http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-research/ http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-r... Specifically: http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/jet.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/pnas.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/signals.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... > it speaks of diversity in knowledge and problem solving approaches, rather than race, gender, age and other identifying features The key piece is how you connect that statement to your next statement of what defines 'top' and 'very good'. Your heuristic is coding output. Code and programming has context. In most cases, it's a business context. The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't coincide with reality. That intrinsic value, of lived experience, shapes thought. It shapes how people approach problems. That value has to be tapped. Those evaluating talent (and its potential) often cannot 'see' why it should be a factor. This is a limitation of the evaluators' local optima (referenced in the research).
- facepalm 10y ago
  "The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't coincide with reality." I can barely understand what you are saying (what does "coincide with reality" mean? What use is it for a company if it doesn't coincide with reality?), but perhaps you could clarify it with a couple of examples? Also, isn't that argument a bit treacherous in that it implies that "diverse" people are different after all, meaning if they don't get ahead in some environments it might actually be because of their different ways of thinking, and not because of bias they face? Edit: I was asked once in a tech interview to prove the theorem of Pythagoras. Yesterday I was in a museum for kids that also featured that theorem, so I feel inspired to use this classical problem: Could you provide an example on how a woman, a woman of color, a white man, a black man, a latino, a gay person (or any other "diverse" person you can think of) would prove that theorem in different ways, unique to their race and gender?

fmitchell0 10y ago

I didn't realize the links had expired. Here is a page linked to the research and modeling I ascribe in my talk: http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-research/ http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/research-2/diversity-r... Specifically: http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/jet.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/pnas.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sites/344/2015/11/signals.pdf http://sites.lsa.umich.edu/scottepage/wp-content/uploads/sit... > it speaks of diversity in knowledge and problem solving approaches, rather than race, gender, age and other identifying features The key piece is how you connect that statement to your next statement of what defines 'top' and 'very good'. Your heuristic is coding output. Code and programming has context. In most cases, it's a business context. The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't coincide with reality. That intrinsic value, of lived experience, shapes thought. It shapes how people approach problems. That value has to be tapped. Those evaluating talent (and its potential) often cannot 'see' why it should be a factor. This is a limitation of the evaluators' local optima (referenced in the research).

facepalm 10y ago
"The point is value can be derived from experiences uniquely tied to race and gender, especially given how we're taught race and gender. It often doesn't coincide with reality." I can barely understand what you are saying (what does "coincide with reality" mean? What use is it for a company if it doesn't coincide with reality?), but perhaps you could clarify it with a couple of examples? Also, isn't that argument a bit treacherous in that it implies that "diverse" people are different after all, meaning if they don't get ahead in some environments it might actually be because of their different ways of thinking, and not because of bias they face? Edit: I was asked once in a tech interview to prove the theorem of Pythagoras. Yesterday I was in a museum for kids that also featured that theorem, so I feel inspired to use this classical problem: Could you provide an example on how a woman, a woman of color, a white man, a black man, a latino, a gay person (or any other "diverse" person you can think of) would prove that theorem in different ways, unique to their race and gender?