7 ms·

Obviously the answer is no, but the average reader likely doesn't know which minerals are elements and which are molecules. The statement seems redundant to you

by smaddox 10y ago

Obviously the answer is no, but the average reader likely doesn't know which minerals are elements and which are molecules. The statement seems redundant to you and I, but it is a key fact and likely not obvious to anyone with minimal chemistry/physics training.

miles 10y ago
"The statement seems redundant to you and I" As long as we're on the subject of pedantry, and with your kind leave, may I humbly point out that the above statement should read "The statement seems redundant to you and me"? If in doubt, drop the words "you and" then see how the sentence works: "The statement seems redundant to I" vs "The statement seems redundant to me" http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html
- ClassyJacket 10y ago
  There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating.
  - roflc0ptic 10y ago
    That's true, but the convention for educated English speakers has it that it should be "you and me", or "us". They may have succeeded at communicating facts but they also conveyed some slight ignorance to some subset of people reading it. Definitely wouldn't have taken the time to point it out, though.
  - miles 10y ago
    By all means! At the same time, there may be something to be said for writing well. I was reminded of this thread: Rare is the leader who can actually write well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429298 and especially part of a comment by Alex3917[1], quoting 37signals's Getting Real[2]: "If you are trying to decide between a few people to fill a position, always hire the better writer. It doesn't matter if that person is a designer, programmer, marketer, salesperson, or whatever, the writing skills will pay off. Effective, concise writing and editing leads to effective, concise code, design, emails, instant messages, and more." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429352 [2] http://gettingreal.37signals.com http://gettingreal.37signals.com
  - kakarot 10y ago
    except he was specifically being pedantic. You can't combat pedantic criticism with "But grammar is just conventions". Grammatical pedantry deals with exactly those conventional nuances.
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      It wasn't pedantry about grammar, it was pedantry about meaning. If a Russian with bad English grammar tried to correct your code, would you try to correct his use of "was" rather than "were"?
      - kakarot 10y ago
        No, it was grammar. Because the grammar shaped the meaning. But when you are dealing specifically with meaning or context and not formal conventions, it is considered a semantic, not pedantic. I don't generally correct people's grammar mistakes these days because I myself have laxed quite a bit in favor of "progressing" my language a bit. But I especially wouldn't correct a foreigner just because, only if I felt they would be receptive to the advice. I would certainly appreciate the same when using a language I'm not familiar with.
        pessimizer 10y ago
        It was simply a factually incorrect statement. It was about grammar as much as "fish ride bicycles" is about grammar. edit: It actually wasn't incorrect at all... I'd lost track of the original statement:) It was just something that would be obvious to people who understood basic chemistry. Either way, it wouldn't be a question of grammar (any more than "some fish swim in the ocean.")
  - alasdair_ 10y ago
    >There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating. If I have to put a lot of effort at decoding what someone says, it's less likely that I'll bother. I'm sure we could all decode l33tspeak but that doesn't mean someone who uses it "succeeded".
  - adrianN 10y ago
    Only because it's called the Geneva Convention that doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow it.
- timlyo 10y ago
  That's a pretty interesting point. Never knew that.
  - iak8god 10y ago
    What's even more interesting about this particular mistake (at least to me) is that it often shows up as hypercorrection[1] by educated, fluent speakers of English who've been socialized to recognize "You and me" as the subject of a sentence as wrong, and perhaps as ignorant-sounding, but have formed a too-aggressive (wrong) representation of the underlying rule. Basically, I know a bunch of people who've been to college and would jump right down your throat if they hear you say "You and me should grab coffee some time," but will walk around all day saying things like "Hey, let's see if Fred wants to grab coffee with you and I." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection#Personal_pronouns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection#Personal_prono...
- smaddox 10y ago
  Touché.
- stan_rogers 10y ago
  If you really want to go there, "you and I" is never correct by the rules of English grammar. It's only when we apply the foreign rules of Latin grammar to English that we wind up with things like "you and I", which needs to be taught. It has, however, become a marker of education and good manners, so even though it is manifestly incorrect, it is often a better choice to use it in subject position in formal circumstances. Expectations outweigh correctness in this case.
ddxv 10y ago
All the dietary minerals are chemical elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient)

by smaddox 10y ago

miles 10y ago

"The statement seems redundant to you and I" As long as we're on the subject of pedantry, and with your kind leave, may I humbly point out that the above statement should read "The statement seems redundant to you and me"? If in doubt, drop the words "you and" then see how the sentence works: "The statement seems redundant to I" vs "The statement seems redundant to me" http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w026.html

ClassyJacket 10y ago
There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating.
- roflc0ptic 10y ago
  That's true, but the convention for educated English speakers has it that it should be "you and me", or "us". They may have succeeded at communicating facts but they also conveyed some slight ignorance to some subset of people reading it. Definitely wouldn't have taken the time to point it out, though.
- miles 10y ago
  By all means! At the same time, there may be something to be said for writing well. I was reminded of this thread: Rare is the leader who can actually write well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429298 and especially part of a comment by Alex3917[1], quoting 37signals's Getting Real[2]: "If you are trying to decide between a few people to fill a position, always hire the better writer. It doesn't matter if that person is a designer, programmer, marketer, salesperson, or whatever, the writing skills will pay off. Effective, concise writing and editing leads to effective, concise code, design, emails, instant messages, and more." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=429352 [2] http://gettingreal.37signals.com http://gettingreal.37signals.com
- kakarot 10y ago
  except he was specifically being pedantic. You can't combat pedantic criticism with "But grammar is just conventions". Grammatical pedantry deals with exactly those conventional nuances.
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    It wasn't pedantry about grammar, it was pedantry about meaning. If a Russian with bad English grammar tried to correct your code, would you try to correct his use of "was" rather than "were"?
    - kakarot 10y ago
      No, it was grammar. Because the grammar shaped the meaning. But when you are dealing specifically with meaning or context and not formal conventions, it is considered a semantic, not pedantic. I don't generally correct people's grammar mistakes these days because I myself have laxed quite a bit in favor of "progressing" my language a bit. But I especially wouldn't correct a foreigner just because, only if I felt they would be receptive to the advice. I would certainly appreciate the same when using a language I'm not familiar with.
      - pessimizer 10y ago
        It was simply a factually incorrect statement. It was about grammar as much as "fish ride bicycles" is about grammar. edit: It actually wasn't incorrect at all... I'd lost track of the original statement:) It was just something that would be obvious to people who understood basic chemistry. Either way, it wouldn't be a question of grammar (any more than "some fish swim in the ocean.")
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  >There are no hard rules with grammar. Just conventions. If we understood what the person meant, then they succeeded at their goal of communicating. If I have to put a lot of effort at decoding what someone says, it's less likely that I'll bother. I'm sure we could all decode l33tspeak but that doesn't mean someone who uses it "succeeded".
- adrianN 10y ago
  Only because it's called the Geneva Convention that doesn't mean that you shouldn't follow it.
timlyo 10y ago
That's a pretty interesting point. Never knew that.
- iak8god 10y ago
  What's even more interesting about this particular mistake (at least to me) is that it often shows up as hypercorrection[1] by educated, fluent speakers of English who've been socialized to recognize "You and me" as the subject of a sentence as wrong, and perhaps as ignorant-sounding, but have formed a too-aggressive (wrong) representation of the underlying rule. Basically, I know a bunch of people who've been to college and would jump right down your throat if they hear you say "You and me should grab coffee some time," but will walk around all day saying things like "Hey, let's see if Fred wants to grab coffee with you and I." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection#Personal_pronouns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection#Personal_prono...
smaddox 10y ago
Touché.
stan_rogers 10y ago
If you really want to go there, "you and I" is never correct by the rules of English grammar. It's only when we apply the foreign rules of Latin grammar to English that we wind up with things like "you and I", which needs to be taught. It has, however, become a marker of education and good manners, so even though it is manifestly incorrect, it is often a better choice to use it in subject position in formal circumstances. Expectations outweigh correctness in this case.

ddxv 10y ago

All the dietary minerals are chemical elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_(nutrient)