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Once upon a time, social justice types supported meritocracy. That was in the era when having classical musicians audition behind a screen increased the % of wo

Once upon a time, social justice types supported meritocracy. That was in the era when having classical musicians audition behind a screen increased the % of women. Unfortunately, the technology world has not had the same experience. When technology becomes more meritocratic (e.g., audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions rather than interviews), we get more Asians, fewer non-Asian minorities and fewer women. Because meritocracy in technology fails to achieve the goal of "gotta catch them all", it must be opposed.

chrishacken 10y ago
So what you're saying is, you want to hire people based on their gender and race rather than their skill set and experience.
- anth1y 10y ago
  skills can be learned.
  - chrishacken 10y ago
    Then learn them before you apply for a job so that you can be competitive.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Yes, clearly "audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions" is a code word for race/gender.
  - chrishacken 10y ago
    I'm confused now. Which stance are you taking? > When technology becomes more meritocratic (e.g., audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions rather than interviews), we get more Asians, fewer non-Asian minorities and fewer women. Because meritocracy in technology fails to achieve the goal of "gotta catch them all", it must be opposed. This seems to suggest that you don't want meritocracy. Was that sarcasm?
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I want meritocracy. I don't think meritocracy (at least in tech) helps promote "diversity" (where diversity is a code word for "women and non-Asian minorities"). (The latter claim is broadly supported, albeit in convoluted language, by the social justice types who oppose meritocracy.) I'm perfectly fine with this; "gotta catch em all" is not one of my goals. It is, however, the goal of many social justice types, so they necessarily oppose meritocracy.
      - chrishacken 10y ago
        My mistake, thanks for the clarification.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      I think you are conflating fajitas position and that of the "social justice types".
cynicalkane 10y ago
Google and Facebook have both claimed that women and minorities tend to outperform hiring scores, which is why they hire them more aggressively. I think there are two factors at play: * Generation and exchange of ideas and approaches is the most important part of software engineering on a team. Diversity of gender and background probably gives this factor a bump. * People are biased, both consciously and unconsciously, against certain minorities. This means lower evaluation scores and weaker resumes (since the world shares the bias). But whatever the reasons, Google and Facebook are pretty good at this whole data analysis thing, so I wouldn't discount their experiences.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I'd be curious to see this analysis. Can you link to it? Here's a hypothetical. Imagine google made an error and it turns out that their analysis has a sign error. Blacks/women actually underperform. Would you favor flipping the sign on whatever action you propose? If not, why not? I ask this because in a number of other contexts, the sign is actually flipped. Blacks drastically underperform what would be predicted from college entrance scores, they are less likely to pay back loans (holding other things constant), and more likely to commit crime. Generation and exchange of ideas and approaches is the most important part of software engineering on a team. Diversity of gender and background probably gives this factor a bump. I'm the only person of my race/nationality at my current company, but I've never really observed this effect. Can you tell me how to tap into these powers? I admit, I do sometimes provide ideas that no one else has, mainly in the area of bayesian stats, low level performance hacking and probabilistic data structures. Is that what you mean? Are these the secret powers unavailable if you don't have someone of my race?
  - cynicalkane 10y ago
    > Imagine google made an error and it turns out that their analysis has a sign error. Blacks/women actually underperform. Would you favor flipping the sign on whatever action you propose? If not, why not? No, because of the above point about diversity. It has an effect on more than just the individual. I don't know if Google has made any claims about the following, but it's been noted that, for example, diverse management teams tend to outperform nondiverse ones. > I admit, I do sometimes provide ideas that no one else has, mainly in the area of bayesian stats, low level performance hacking and probabilistic data structures. Is that what you mean? Are these the secret powers unavailable if you don't have someone of my race? You are being intentionally facetious. I know you're a smart person, that you're very probably aware of what diversity arguments are about, and this reply is thoughtless in a disrespectful way. I'm only spelling it out to avoid downvoters: the idea is that different approaches and attitudes are informed by race, culture, background and gender in ways that are difficult to measure in the interview process. For the record, I would consider a white hillbilly or southerner as 'diverse' in most computer workplaces.
jballanc 10y ago
That's a straw man. "Audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions" is not equivalent to a "blind audition" for musicians. GitHub/OSS already have lower participation rates from women and minorities than the technology industry as a whole precisely because the OSS "meritocracy" fails to address discriminatory behavior and is not blind: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-con... Blind coding tests would come the closest to the equivalent of a blind audition, but coding tests as hiring criteria have their own problems in general.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  The conclusions of the actual study don't support your claims. From Scott Alexander's review of it: A non-peer-reviewed paper shows that women get more requests accepted than men. In one subgroup, unblinding gender gives women a bigger advantage; in another subgroup, unblinding gender gives men a bigger advantage. When gender is unblinded, both men and women do worse; it’s unclear if there are statistically significant differences in this regard. Only one of the study’s subgroups showed lower acceptance for women than men, and the size of the difference was 63% vs. 64%, which may or may not be statistically significant. This may or may not be related to the fact, demonstrated in the study, that women propose bigger and less-immediately-useful changes on average; no attempt was made to control for this. This tiny amount of discrimination against women seems to be mostly from other women, not from men. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci... Most of the results of that study suggest open source is friendlier to women than to men. But the study isn't really that high quality, and the results aren't that strong, so I wouldn't draw a very strong conclusion from this. When that study came out I asked the authors for their data set and analysis scripts. They categorically refused. Also not a strong indication of quality.

chrishacken 10y ago

So what you're saying is, you want to hire people based on their gender and race rather than their skill set and experience.

anth1y 10y ago
skills can be learned.
- chrishacken 10y ago
  Then learn them before you apply for a job so that you can be competitive.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
Yes, clearly "audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions" is a code word for race/gender.
- chrishacken 10y ago
  I'm confused now. Which stance are you taking? > When technology becomes more meritocratic (e.g., audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions rather than interviews), we get more Asians, fewer non-Asian minorities and fewer women. Because meritocracy in technology fails to achieve the goal of "gotta catch them all", it must be opposed. This seems to suggest that you don't want meritocracy. Was that sarcasm?
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I want meritocracy. I don't think meritocracy (at least in tech) helps promote "diversity" (where diversity is a code word for "women and non-Asian minorities"). (The latter claim is broadly supported, albeit in convoluted language, by the social justice types who oppose meritocracy.) I'm perfectly fine with this; "gotta catch em all" is not one of my goals. It is, however, the goal of many social justice types, so they necessarily oppose meritocracy.
    - chrishacken 10y ago
      My mistake, thanks for the clarification.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    I think you are conflating fajitas position and that of the "social justice types".

cynicalkane 10y ago

Google and Facebook have both claimed that women and minorities tend to outperform hiring scores, which is why they hire them more aggressively. I think there are two factors at play: * Generation and exchange of ideas and approaches is the most important part of software engineering on a team. Diversity of gender and background probably gives this factor a bump. * People are biased, both consciously and unconsciously, against certain minorities. This means lower evaluation scores and weaker resumes (since the world shares the bias). But whatever the reasons, Google and Facebook are pretty good at this whole data analysis thing, so I wouldn't discount their experiences.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I'd be curious to see this analysis. Can you link to it? Here's a hypothetical. Imagine google made an error and it turns out that their analysis has a sign error. Blacks/women actually underperform. Would you favor flipping the sign on whatever action you propose? If not, why not? I ask this because in a number of other contexts, the sign is actually flipped. Blacks drastically underperform what would be predicted from college entrance scores, they are less likely to pay back loans (holding other things constant), and more likely to commit crime. Generation and exchange of ideas and approaches is the most important part of software engineering on a team. Diversity of gender and background probably gives this factor a bump. I'm the only person of my race/nationality at my current company, but I've never really observed this effect. Can you tell me how to tap into these powers? I admit, I do sometimes provide ideas that no one else has, mainly in the area of bayesian stats, low level performance hacking and probabilistic data structures. Is that what you mean? Are these the secret powers unavailable if you don't have someone of my race?
- cynicalkane 10y ago
  > Imagine google made an error and it turns out that their analysis has a sign error. Blacks/women actually underperform. Would you favor flipping the sign on whatever action you propose? If not, why not? No, because of the above point about diversity. It has an effect on more than just the individual. I don't know if Google has made any claims about the following, but it's been noted that, for example, diverse management teams tend to outperform nondiverse ones. > I admit, I do sometimes provide ideas that no one else has, mainly in the area of bayesian stats, low level performance hacking and probabilistic data structures. Is that what you mean? Are these the secret powers unavailable if you don't have someone of my race? You are being intentionally facetious. I know you're a smart person, that you're very probably aware of what diversity arguments are about, and this reply is thoughtless in a disrespectful way. I'm only spelling it out to avoid downvoters: the idea is that different approaches and attitudes are informed by race, culture, background and gender in ways that are difficult to measure in the interview process. For the record, I would consider a white hillbilly or southerner as 'diverse' in most computer workplaces.

jballanc 10y ago

That's a straw man. "Audition via github/coding tests/open source contributions" is not equivalent to a "blind audition" for musicians. GitHub/OSS already have lower participation rates from women and minorities than the technology industry as a whole precisely because the OSS "meritocracy" fails to address discriminatory behavior and is not blind: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-con... Blind coding tests would come the closest to the equivalent of a blind audition, but coding tests as hiring criteria have their own problems in general.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
The conclusions of the actual study don't support your claims. From Scott Alexander's review of it: A non-peer-reviewed paper shows that women get more requests accepted than men. In one subgroup, unblinding gender gives women a bigger advantage; in another subgroup, unblinding gender gives men a bigger advantage. When gender is unblinded, both men and women do worse; it’s unclear if there are statistically significant differences in this regard. Only one of the study’s subgroups showed lower acceptance for women than men, and the size of the difference was 63% vs. 64%, which may or may not be statistically significant. This may or may not be related to the fact, demonstrated in the study, that women propose bigger and less-immediately-useful changes on average; no attempt was made to control for this. This tiny amount of discrimination against women seems to be mostly from other women, not from men. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-excited-about-that-github-study/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/12/before-you-get-too-exci... Most of the results of that study suggest open source is friendlier to women than to men. But the study isn't really that high quality, and the results aren't that strong, so I wouldn't draw a very strong conclusion from this. When that study came out I asked the authors for their data set and analysis scripts. They categorically refused. Also not a strong indication of quality.