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This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. There's EVs with over a hundred thousand miles on the

by ebbv 10y ago

This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. There's EVs with over a hundred thousand miles on the original pack still doing great. Please stop repeating nonsense as if it is a fact.

grzm 10y ago
I understand how frustrating that can be. Do you have a reference at hand that busts this myth?
- ebbv 10y ago
  Guy #1: Shaking pinecones will scare snakes away. Guy #2: No it won't. Guy #3: Do you have any sources that disprove that claim? The onus is on the person making the ridiculous claim. I can tell you from personal experience I have had a Nissan LEAF for about 2.5 years and ~24k miles, driven daily and it has lost no range whatsoever. But if you want a study or something, you're gonna have to Google for yourself man.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Hey, your anecdotal experience is better than nothing. I'm reading this thread as an interested observer. Both you and 'jjawssd are making claims, and you're very confident that 'jjawssd is wrong. This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone who expresses that level of confidence to have something to back it up. And if the false claim is so widespread, I'd also expect someone to have busted it and publicized it. From my outside, ignorant point of view, both sides are unproven, with an edge to you because of your own experience.
    - ebbv 10y ago
      We aren't both making claims. He's making a claim and I'm saying it's an unsubstantiated internet meme. My little joke example was meant to illustrate that. I'm sure you have devices in your own life that disprove his claim. Look at your phone. Does it really go to 50% capacity after 500 days? None of mine have. Sure batteries degrade over time and you'll experience better performance one day or worse another, but he's claiming after 500 days of using your phone you should be at 50% capacity. That's obviously baloney.
      - grzm 10y ago
        You are both making claims, the positive and negative of a particular characteristic of batteries. When I first read your comment, I thought you were a little over the top, but it sounded like you likely had something solid to back it up, so I was interested in learning something new. Personally, I don't make strong statements like that unless I can pretty quickly defend them. I honestly wasn't trying to catch you out. And seeing a myth busted is generally a good time! As for phone batteries, I just had to replace mine, so that's not a particularly useful example. As I understand it, there's a lot of circuitry in phone batteries these days anyway, so I'm not sure what failed. I'm not going to use my anecdotal evidence for or against your case, for what it's worth. Be well!
        ebbv 10y ago
        If I had said "No they maintain 100% at 500 cycles." Then I would also be making a claim. I made no claim, I just said his claim is an internet meme that is bullshit. There's a big difference. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. I don't save a folder full of links to answer skeptical people on the internet and I'm not going to Google for you. If you're interested in reading articles, go look for yourself. Anyway whatever. This has been a colossal waste of time.
        Erem 10y ago
        What an unreasonably combative response. Next time just say "sorry I don't have hard evidence for this opinion on hand". Nobody expects you to know everything but they do expect you to treat people decently.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    My 2.25 year old LEAF with ~9000 miles on it has lost about 5% capacity. I'd be very surprised to learn yours has not lost any capacity. Are you relying only on the 12 bar indicator or on the more detailed data download from the car's telemetry? My car still shows 12 bars, but has obviously lost some capacity (max range at 100% charge is down to about 95 from 102/103), just like my phone that still charges to "100%" but obviously has way less capacity after 3 years. From my perspective, losing "no range whatsoever" after 2.5 years is the extraordinary claim.
    - ebbv 10y ago
      I haven't downloaded the telemetry but we drive it every day and the range we get is extremely consistent. I'm sure there must be some degredation but my point is we haven't really lost any range. The weather and our driving behavior is the main cause of range variation. If his claims about losing 50% capacity after 500 cycles were remotely true that would be the main cause of lost range ina 2.5 year old LEAF.
    - thephilsproject 10y ago
      From my understanding, the LEAF has a primitive battery management system compared to other EVs, including passive air cooling of the battery. Lithium batteries are fussy about temperature (they have similar temperature preferences to humans) and outside of this the degradation can be faster. Other EVs have liquid heating and active cooling of the battery.
      - sokoloff 10y ago
        The LEAF does have a battery heater I'm pretty sure.
- jccooper 10y ago
  Well, here's some data from a decent number of Tesla Model S in the wild: https://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php https://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php I'd say it looks like they behave rather well in general.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Thanks! That is pretty impressive.

by ebbv 10y ago

grzm 10y ago

I understand how frustrating that can be. Do you have a reference at hand that busts this myth?

ebbv 10y ago
Guy #1: Shaking pinecones will scare snakes away. Guy #2: No it won't. Guy #3: Do you have any sources that disprove that claim? The onus is on the person making the ridiculous claim. I can tell you from personal experience I have had a Nissan LEAF for about 2.5 years and ~24k miles, driven daily and it has lost no range whatsoever. But if you want a study or something, you're gonna have to Google for yourself man.
- grzm 10y ago
  Hey, your anecdotal experience is better than nothing. I'm reading this thread as an interested observer. Both you and 'jjawssd are making claims, and you're very confident that 'jjawssd is wrong. This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone who expresses that level of confidence to have something to back it up. And if the false claim is so widespread, I'd also expect someone to have busted it and publicized it. From my outside, ignorant point of view, both sides are unproven, with an edge to you because of your own experience.
  - ebbv 10y ago
    We aren't both making claims. He's making a claim and I'm saying it's an unsubstantiated internet meme. My little joke example was meant to illustrate that. I'm sure you have devices in your own life that disprove his claim. Look at your phone. Does it really go to 50% capacity after 500 days? None of mine have. Sure batteries degrade over time and you'll experience better performance one day or worse another, but he's claiming after 500 days of using your phone you should be at 50% capacity. That's obviously baloney.
    - grzm 10y ago
      You are both making claims, the positive and negative of a particular characteristic of batteries. When I first read your comment, I thought you were a little over the top, but it sounded like you likely had something solid to back it up, so I was interested in learning something new. Personally, I don't make strong statements like that unless I can pretty quickly defend them. I honestly wasn't trying to catch you out. And seeing a myth busted is generally a good time! As for phone batteries, I just had to replace mine, so that's not a particularly useful example. As I understand it, there's a lot of circuitry in phone batteries these days anyway, so I'm not sure what failed. I'm not going to use my anecdotal evidence for or against your case, for what it's worth. Be well!
      - ebbv 10y ago
        If I had said "No they maintain 100% at 500 cycles." Then I would also be making a claim. I made no claim, I just said his claim is an internet meme that is bullshit. There's a big difference. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. I don't save a folder full of links to answer skeptical people on the internet and I'm not going to Google for you. If you're interested in reading articles, go look for yourself. Anyway whatever. This has been a colossal waste of time.
        Erem 10y ago
        What an unreasonably combative response. Next time just say "sorry I don't have hard evidence for this opinion on hand". Nobody expects you to know everything but they do expect you to treat people decently.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  My 2.25 year old LEAF with ~9000 miles on it has lost about 5% capacity. I'd be very surprised to learn yours has not lost any capacity. Are you relying only on the 12 bar indicator or on the more detailed data download from the car's telemetry? My car still shows 12 bars, but has obviously lost some capacity (max range at 100% charge is down to about 95 from 102/103), just like my phone that still charges to "100%" but obviously has way less capacity after 3 years. From my perspective, losing "no range whatsoever" after 2.5 years is the extraordinary claim.
  - ebbv 10y ago
    I haven't downloaded the telemetry but we drive it every day and the range we get is extremely consistent. I'm sure there must be some degredation but my point is we haven't really lost any range. The weather and our driving behavior is the main cause of range variation. If his claims about losing 50% capacity after 500 cycles were remotely true that would be the main cause of lost range ina 2.5 year old LEAF.
  - thephilsproject 10y ago
    From my understanding, the LEAF has a primitive battery management system compared to other EVs, including passive air cooling of the battery. Lithium batteries are fussy about temperature (they have similar temperature preferences to humans) and outside of this the degradation can be faster. Other EVs have liquid heating and active cooling of the battery.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      The LEAF does have a battery heater I'm pretty sure.
jccooper 10y ago
Well, here's some data from a decent number of Tesla Model S in the wild: https://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php https://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php I'd say it looks like they behave rather well in general.
- grzm 10y ago
  Thanks! That is pretty impressive.