6 ms·

Lithium ion battery capacity decays with each charge down to 50% after 500 cycles

by jjawssd 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago
That depends greatly on the specific battery chemistry, the temperatures the battery is exposed to, the charge levels, the charge rates, etc. You can't just make a blanket statement like that.
Reason077 10y ago
capacity decays with each charge down to 50% after 500 cycles Not true with modern EV batteries. Tesla's packs typically show less than 8% degradation after 100,000 miles, which would be approximately 500 cycles. https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-data-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-da...
- applecore 10y ago
  Tesla batteries only show very little degradation because their capacity is limited by software[1]. You can "increase" your battery capacity by ordering a $9,000 software update. [1]: https://electrek.co/2016/07/26/tesla-upgrade-software-limited-battery-pack-model-s-x/ https://electrek.co/2016/07/26/tesla-upgrade-software-limite...
  - will_hughes 10y ago
    >You can "increase" your battery capacity by ordering a $9,000 software update. Thats only for certain specific model and delivery time combinations. i.e just before they introduced the 90kWh option in production, some 85kWh cars were shipping with the 90kWh pack. If you ordered a particular pack before the next step size started shipping, then that's all you got. >Tesla batteries only show very little degradation because their capacity is limited by software Not true. It's mostly to do with active management of the battery, and keeping it within the optimal conditions for much of it's life. These are things your phone and laptop can't (or rather: don't) do. Everyone tends to plug in their laptop/phone and charge to 100%, then leave it there for long periods of time. Plus, laptops and phones tend to get very hot, and there's no active cooling of the battery. This combination of conditions tends to reduce the life of batteries significantly.
    - ksrm 10y ago
      >Everyone tends to plug in their laptop/phone and charge to 100%, then leave it there for long periods of time. Why is this a problem for Lithium batteries?
      - will_hughes 10y ago
        Leaving lithium batteries at their extremes of charge state reduces their lifetime. Tesla recommends that their customers to charge to only about 80% for normal daily driving, and that if they need the full 100% range that they should start driving very soon after it reaches 100% charge. They also recommend not leaving it at empty for very long too as empty cells are more likely to drop below their minimum voltage, and die.
ebbv 10y ago
This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. There's EVs with over a hundred thousand miles on the original pack still doing great. Please stop repeating nonsense as if it is a fact.
- grzm 10y ago
  I understand how frustrating that can be. Do you have a reference at hand that busts this myth?
  - ebbv 10y ago
    Guy #1: Shaking pinecones will scare snakes away. Guy #2: No it won't. Guy #3: Do you have any sources that disprove that claim? The onus is on the person making the ridiculous claim. I can tell you from personal experience I have had a Nissan LEAF for about 2.5 years and ~24k miles, driven daily and it has lost no range whatsoever. But if you want a study or something, you're gonna have to Google for yourself man.
    - grzm 10y ago
      Hey, your anecdotal experience is better than nothing. I'm reading this thread as an interested observer. Both you and 'jjawssd are making claims, and you're very confident that 'jjawssd is wrong. This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone who expresses that level of confidence to have something to back it up. And if the false claim is so widespread, I'd also expect someone to have busted it and publicized it. From my outside, ignorant point of view, both sides are unproven, with an edge to you because of your own experience.
      - ebbv 10y ago
        We aren't both making claims. He's making a claim and I'm saying it's an unsubstantiated internet meme. My little joke example was meant to illustrate that. I'm sure you have devices in your own life that disprove his claim. Look at your phone. Does it really go to 50% capacity after 500 days? None of mine have. Sure batteries degrade over time and you'll experience better performance one day or worse another, but he's claiming after 500 days of using your phone you should be at 50% capacity. That's obviously baloney.
maxsilver 10y ago
I own an electric car (with a lithium ion battery) and commute daily with it. It's now four years old, has driven over 45,000 miles (well over 500 cycles) and the total degradation is less than 10%.
- Flemlord 10y ago
  Me too. Just traded in a 4yr old Model S with 52k miles and saw <10% degradation. Fully charged, it was 210 miles new, and about 192 after 4 years.

Lithium ion battery capacity decays with each charge down to 50% after 500 cycles

by jjawssd 10y ago

Lithium ion battery capacity decays with each charge down to 50% after 500 cycles

That depends greatly on the specific battery chemistry, the temperatures the battery is exposed to, the charge levels, the charge rates, etc. You can't just make a blanket statement like that.

Reason077 10y ago

capacity decays with each charge down to 50% after 500 cycles Not true with modern EV batteries. Tesla's packs typically show less than 8% degradation after 100,000 miles, which would be approximately 500 cycles. https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-data-degradation/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-da...

applecore 10y ago
Tesla batteries only show very little degradation because their capacity is limited by software[1]. You can "increase" your battery capacity by ordering a $9,000 software update. [1]: https://electrek.co/2016/07/26/tesla-upgrade-software-limited-battery-pack-model-s-x/ https://electrek.co/2016/07/26/tesla-upgrade-software-limite...
- will_hughes 10y ago
  >You can "increase" your battery capacity by ordering a $9,000 software update. Thats only for certain specific model and delivery time combinations. i.e just before they introduced the 90kWh option in production, some 85kWh cars were shipping with the 90kWh pack. If you ordered a particular pack before the next step size started shipping, then that's all you got. >Tesla batteries only show very little degradation because their capacity is limited by software Not true. It's mostly to do with active management of the battery, and keeping it within the optimal conditions for much of it's life. These are things your phone and laptop can't (or rather: don't) do. Everyone tends to plug in their laptop/phone and charge to 100%, then leave it there for long periods of time. Plus, laptops and phones tend to get very hot, and there's no active cooling of the battery. This combination of conditions tends to reduce the life of batteries significantly.
  - ksrm 10y ago
    >Everyone tends to plug in their laptop/phone and charge to 100%, then leave it there for long periods of time. Why is this a problem for Lithium batteries?
    - will_hughes 10y ago
      Leaving lithium batteries at their extremes of charge state reduces their lifetime. Tesla recommends that their customers to charge to only about 80% for normal daily driving, and that if they need the full 100% range that they should start driving very soon after it reaches 100% charge. They also recommend not leaving it at empty for very long too as empty cells are more likely to drop below their minimum voltage, and die.

ebbv 10y ago

This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. There's EVs with over a hundred thousand miles on the original pack still doing great. Please stop repeating nonsense as if it is a fact.

grzm 10y ago
I understand how frustrating that can be. Do you have a reference at hand that busts this myth?
- ebbv 10y ago
  Guy #1: Shaking pinecones will scare snakes away. Guy #2: No it won't. Guy #3: Do you have any sources that disprove that claim? The onus is on the person making the ridiculous claim. I can tell you from personal experience I have had a Nissan LEAF for about 2.5 years and ~24k miles, driven daily and it has lost no range whatsoever. But if you want a study or something, you're gonna have to Google for yourself man.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Hey, your anecdotal experience is better than nothing. I'm reading this thread as an interested observer. Both you and 'jjawssd are making claims, and you're very confident that 'jjawssd is wrong. This is a bullshit statistic that has somehow become a meme on the internet. It just flat out isn't true. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone who expresses that level of confidence to have something to back it up. And if the false claim is so widespread, I'd also expect someone to have busted it and publicized it. From my outside, ignorant point of view, both sides are unproven, with an edge to you because of your own experience.
    - ebbv 10y ago
      We aren't both making claims. He's making a claim and I'm saying it's an unsubstantiated internet meme. My little joke example was meant to illustrate that. I'm sure you have devices in your own life that disprove his claim. Look at your phone. Does it really go to 50% capacity after 500 days? None of mine have. Sure batteries degrade over time and you'll experience better performance one day or worse another, but he's claiming after 500 days of using your phone you should be at 50% capacity. That's obviously baloney.

maxsilver 10y ago

I own an electric car (with a lithium ion battery) and commute daily with it. It's now four years old, has driven over 45,000 miles (well over 500 cycles) and the total degradation is less than 10%.

Flemlord 10y ago
Me too. Just traded in a 4yr old Model S with 52k miles and saw <10% degradation. Fully charged, it was 210 miles new, and about 192 after 4 years.