4 ms·

Does Peter Thiel still consider himself a libertarian? I just can't imagine how Trump's positions on immigration can be justified on libertarian grounds.

User23 10y ago
It's pretty easy actually. It's pretty much the same argument one uses to justify building a fence around any other piece of property.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  The United States of America is not "any other piece of property".
  - User23 10y ago
    I didn't say it is, just that an analogous argument can be applied. First you postulate citizenship as membership in a private club. The club's bylaws determine who gets to be a member and how the club's property is to be managed and protected. The rest is trivial and I'm not actually a libertarian so I'm not going to bother working through it.
    - olalonde 10y ago
      In other words, you can arrive to an incorrect conclusion by postulating incorrectly. Free immigration (free movement of people) is regarded as one of the core concepts of libertarian theory and philosophy. It's not "easy" to argue for restrictive policies on immigration from a libertarian standpoint.
      - vedranm 10y ago
        That can happen only in a society where there are no public services and all property is privately owned. Then crossing the "border" of the country is considered trespassing on someone's private property and it's up to them to allow or disallow it.
vedranm 10y ago
In addition to the argument in the other comment, compare Donald Trump to Rand Paul or Ron Paul, which are the prime examples of what libertarianism is (unlike Gary Johnson). Both of them take a stance against illegal immigration and for strong borders [1, 2]. [1] https://randpaul.com/issues/immigration https://randpaul.com/issues/immigration [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Borders_and_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau...

User23 10y ago

It's pretty easy actually. It's pretty much the same argument one uses to justify building a fence around any other piece of property.

metaphorm 10y ago
The United States of America is not "any other piece of property".
- User23 10y ago
  I didn't say it is, just that an analogous argument can be applied. First you postulate citizenship as membership in a private club. The club's bylaws determine who gets to be a member and how the club's property is to be managed and protected. The rest is trivial and I'm not actually a libertarian so I'm not going to bother working through it.
  - olalonde 10y ago
    In other words, you can arrive to an incorrect conclusion by postulating incorrectly. Free immigration (free movement of people) is regarded as one of the core concepts of libertarian theory and philosophy. It's not "easy" to argue for restrictive policies on immigration from a libertarian standpoint.
    - vedranm 10y ago
      That can happen only in a society where there are no public services and all property is privately owned. Then crossing the "border" of the country is considered trespassing on someone's private property and it's up to them to allow or disallow it.

vedranm 10y ago

In addition to the argument in the other comment, compare Donald Trump to Rand Paul or Ron Paul, which are the prime examples of what libertarianism is (unlike Gary Johnson). Both of them take a stance against illegal immigration and for strong borders [1, 2]. [1] https://randpaul.com/issues/immigration https://randpaul.com/issues/immigration [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Borders_and_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau...