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> Computers are everywhere in our world today and being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science and its underlying

> Computers are everywhere in our world today and being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science and its underlying problem-solving methodology of computational thinking. I know this is just some copywriter writing this, but this seems the height of Silicon Valley bubble thinking. Plenty of people do just fine in their lives barely interacting with computers at all. Sure, it's helpful to be able to use email and a web browser, but "being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science"? Come on.

ng12 10y ago
It's exactly like knowing how to diagnose and fix issues with your car. Is it helpful to know at least a little bit? Absolutely. Is it a necessity? Not by a long shot.
- maolt 10y ago
  Did you mean like "knowing how to read and parse textual content for information?"
jkaptur 10y ago
Plenty of people "do just fine in their lives" without knowing how to read. This is discussing how to "be an educated citizen", a far higher bar. An educated citizen: * can have an informed opinion about the NSA's definition of "collecting" information [0]. * when told "we need to make sure that this list of 100,000 URLs are all valid websites", doesn't respond "wow, we'll need to hire a big team". * can reason about data-driven classification of documents (e.g. Facebook's news feed, Google search). [0] https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/wordgames#collect https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/wordgames#collect
- xtreme 10y ago
  I disagree. That is like saying that an educated citizen must: * have an informed opinion on current Emission standards * be able to change oil on their own car * could describe how a 4-stroke engine works Replace the computer with a car and you will see that what you consider basic knowledge is not basic to most people. They rely on experts for advice, opinion, and guidance.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Call me a nerd, but I'd call all of your points a pretty basic requirements for a citizen of a technological civilization. Failing that, we end up with lot of crazy beliefs about the world that people wouldn't have if they hadn't forgotten 99% of stuff they spent learning in high school.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      Why does someone need to know how to change the oil in their car, or how a 4-stroke engine works? The information is readily available if you should ever need it, but what's wrong with paying someone who does know that stuff?
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        Not having a basic understanding of how internal combustion engines work means not understanding one of the linchpins of our civilization as it is today. I'm not saying you shouldn't be using third-party services - professional specialization is another linchpin of our civilization. All I'm saying is that people should understand these things, in order to have a chance of comprehending the world they live in.
  - jkaptur 10y ago
    You don't think the educated citizen should have an informed opinion on current emission standards? Your second two examples rely on specific facts or techniques, which I don't think mine do. For example, I didn't say that the person be able to write the script to check all those URLs, just be able to identify it as a task that an expert could easily do.
  - gshulegaard 10y ago
    People often forget, but educating the masses is a challenge that was discussed in length by the Founding Fathers of America as being a cornerstone of a successful democracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers Education of the masses was believed to be instrumental to avoiding tyranny of the majority which was a very real concern (especially since so many Founding Fathers came to America escaping religious prosecution as the minority faith). It's my personal belief that the difficulty in achieving "sufficient" widespread education ultimately shaped the decision to model America's self-governance after a Republic with non-elected checks and balances (included non-elected ones e.g. Judicial) rather than a more direct/representative democracy. The pseudo-perversion of the Electoral College leading to highly correlated Executive Branch elections with the popular vote I think undermines this system and heightens the education requirement of the average citizen. Also, on a side note, the lack of perfect information has significant effects on Economic systems leading to market externalities.
- flukus 10y ago
  Citizens don't need to be educated, they need to listen to people that are. The problem lately (possibly always) is that the information exchange is being intercepted by special interests.
  - setr 10y ago
    The educated are themselves special interests, even if not paid by external sources And too close a following to the "educated" leads to the rise of your special interests; if it wasn't possible to turn the minds of many by using only a few, there wouldn't be anything worth intercepting The trouble, i think, is that we assume the educated are educated, when they are not, and the educated are sincere, when they are not, and the educated are made of higher moral fiber, when they most certainly are not.
joe563323 10y ago
Almost the whole population of earth is affected by computers on a daily basis. Seems logical for the citizens to know the fundamentals irrespective of the domain they are in. Because almost all the domains will be soon run through computers.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  But we live in a tech bubble. The fact that we lurk and post on HN is the proof of it. Of course knowing computers makes sense to us as a requirement to be an educated citizen of the world. Take a step back. All of the following are vital to our modern lives yet most people will only be able to check 2 or 3 of them. - cars mechanics - electronics / electricity - radio / telecommunications - computers - plumbing - hunting - agriculture - food processing - medicine & first aid - philosophy - music - cinematography etc. You will have advanced knowledge of very few of those. The rest you will barely interact with. Barely interacting with computers in the reality of a lot of people.
  - sn9 10y ago
    Who said anything about advanced knowledge? We're talking basic literacy. You should at least know how to learn more about most of those subjects as they're needed, or know who to talk to when specialist knowledge may be required.
TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
Math and science isn't used in a lot of people's every day life, but you have to learn it.

ng12 10y ago

It's exactly like knowing how to diagnose and fix issues with your car. Is it helpful to know at least a little bit? Absolutely. Is it a necessity? Not by a long shot.

maolt 10y ago
Did you mean like "knowing how to read and parse textual content for information?"

jkaptur 10y ago

Plenty of people "do just fine in their lives" without knowing how to read. This is discussing how to "be an educated citizen", a far higher bar. An educated citizen: * can have an informed opinion about the NSA's definition of "collecting" information [0]. * when told "we need to make sure that this list of 100,000 URLs are all valid websites", doesn't respond "wow, we'll need to hire a big team". * can reason about data-driven classification of documents (e.g. Facebook's news feed, Google search). [0] https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/wordgames#collect https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/wordgames#collect

xtreme 10y ago
I disagree. That is like saying that an educated citizen must: * have an informed opinion on current Emission standards * be able to change oil on their own car * could describe how a 4-stroke engine works Replace the computer with a car and you will see that what you consider basic knowledge is not basic to most people. They rely on experts for advice, opinion, and guidance.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Call me a nerd, but I'd call all of your points a pretty basic requirements for a citizen of a technological civilization. Failing that, we end up with lot of crazy beliefs about the world that people wouldn't have if they hadn't forgotten 99% of stuff they spent learning in high school.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Why does someone need to know how to change the oil in their car, or how a 4-stroke engine works? The information is readily available if you should ever need it, but what's wrong with paying someone who does know that stuff?
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Not having a basic understanding of how internal combustion engines work means not understanding one of the linchpins of our civilization as it is today. I'm not saying you shouldn't be using third-party services - professional specialization is another linchpin of our civilization. All I'm saying is that people should understand these things, in order to have a chance of comprehending the world they live in.
- jkaptur 10y ago
  You don't think the educated citizen should have an informed opinion on current emission standards? Your second two examples rely on specific facts or techniques, which I don't think mine do. For example, I didn't say that the person be able to write the script to check all those URLs, just be able to identify it as a task that an expert could easily do.
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  People often forget, but educating the masses is a challenge that was discussed in length by the Founding Fathers of America as being a cornerstone of a successful democracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers Education of the masses was believed to be instrumental to avoiding tyranny of the majority which was a very real concern (especially since so many Founding Fathers came to America escaping religious prosecution as the minority faith). It's my personal belief that the difficulty in achieving "sufficient" widespread education ultimately shaped the decision to model America's self-governance after a Republic with non-elected checks and balances (included non-elected ones e.g. Judicial) rather than a more direct/representative democracy. The pseudo-perversion of the Electoral College leading to highly correlated Executive Branch elections with the popular vote I think undermines this system and heightens the education requirement of the average citizen. Also, on a side note, the lack of perfect information has significant effects on Economic systems leading to market externalities.
flukus 10y ago
Citizens don't need to be educated, they need to listen to people that are. The problem lately (possibly always) is that the information exchange is being intercepted by special interests.
- setr 10y ago
  The educated are themselves special interests, even if not paid by external sources And too close a following to the "educated" leads to the rise of your special interests; if it wasn't possible to turn the minds of many by using only a few, there wouldn't be anything worth intercepting The trouble, i think, is that we assume the educated are educated, when they are not, and the educated are sincere, when they are not, and the educated are made of higher moral fiber, when they most certainly are not.

joe563323 10y ago

Almost the whole population of earth is affected by computers on a daily basis. Seems logical for the citizens to know the fundamentals irrespective of the domain they are in. Because almost all the domains will be soon run through computers.

Raphmedia 10y ago
But we live in a tech bubble. The fact that we lurk and post on HN is the proof of it. Of course knowing computers makes sense to us as a requirement to be an educated citizen of the world. Take a step back. All of the following are vital to our modern lives yet most people will only be able to check 2 or 3 of them. - cars mechanics - electronics / electricity - radio / telecommunications - computers - plumbing - hunting - agriculture - food processing - medicine & first aid - philosophy - music - cinematography etc. You will have advanced knowledge of very few of those. The rest you will barely interact with. Barely interacting with computers in the reality of a lot of people.
- sn9 10y ago
  Who said anything about advanced knowledge? We're talking basic literacy. You should at least know how to learn more about most of those subjects as they're needed, or know who to talk to when specialist knowledge may be required.

TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago

Math and science isn't used in a lot of people's every day life, but you have to learn it.