4 ms·

Historical misconception: Rome was not destroyed by barbarians at the gates, it was destroyed by barbarians inside the gates, hired as mercenary replacements fo

Historical misconception: Rome was not destroyed by barbarians at the gates, it was destroyed by barbarians inside the gates, hired as mercenary replacements for military regulars. Once the gold dried up, they sacked their former clients or simply left to find other work, leaving many Roman regions sparsely defended. You analogy does not hold up.

carry_bit 10y ago
It holds up quite well actually. You pretty much outlined why step two is deportation, to remove those already inside the gates.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Allow me to expand. The American economy depends on immigrants, as did Rome. We need immigrants to work our fields, found startups, and maintain the birth rate (which would be demographic doom in America without immigration). If we expel recent immigrants and close the gates, we will need to either automate furiously or push the birth rate way, way, way up. Good luck convincing more young people to have kids when they can barely scrape up enough to buy a house. Otherwise you will need to mobilize the legions of American heroin addicts and dependents on Social Security "disability" to actually go out and work for shit pay. Or maybe paying more for the same goods is what you would prefer? And of course, if you kick out 20 million people from America, you kick out 20 million consumers. Without their spending, what will happen to the Americans whose jobs depend on them? I am not being hostile or facetious. I always keep an open mind about how to do things better. But the anti-immigrant doctrine so far has produced no plausible answers to the questions I have asked of you.
  - carry_bit 10y ago
    I think you may be overlooking the level of desperation coming from the "build the wall, deport them all"-types. They viewed the 2016 election as the Flight 93 election: they could either sit back and face certain death, or they could try storming the cabin and at least have a chance. While there are challenges and hardships in fixing the immigration situation, they would prefer to face those issues rather than sit back while the nation commits suicide. This choice is also made easier for them, as many of them are starting at the same point as you are. They don't believe maintaining the birth rate is that vital. They don't know or don't believe in the benefits of free trade. They believe that kicking out 20 million consumers is fine because Americans will be producing for Americans now and not the Chinese. It's easy to sell people on economic policies that have seen benefits and unseen costs, even if overall they cost society as a whole.

carry_bit 10y ago

It holds up quite well actually. You pretty much outlined why step two is deportation, to remove those already inside the gates.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Allow me to expand. The American economy depends on immigrants, as did Rome. We need immigrants to work our fields, found startups, and maintain the birth rate (which would be demographic doom in America without immigration). If we expel recent immigrants and close the gates, we will need to either automate furiously or push the birth rate way, way, way up. Good luck convincing more young people to have kids when they can barely scrape up enough to buy a house. Otherwise you will need to mobilize the legions of American heroin addicts and dependents on Social Security "disability" to actually go out and work for shit pay. Or maybe paying more for the same goods is what you would prefer? And of course, if you kick out 20 million people from America, you kick out 20 million consumers. Without their spending, what will happen to the Americans whose jobs depend on them? I am not being hostile or facetious. I always keep an open mind about how to do things better. But the anti-immigrant doctrine so far has produced no plausible answers to the questions I have asked of you.
- carry_bit 10y ago
  I think you may be overlooking the level of desperation coming from the "build the wall, deport them all"-types. They viewed the 2016 election as the Flight 93 election: they could either sit back and face certain death, or they could try storming the cabin and at least have a chance. While there are challenges and hardships in fixing the immigration situation, they would prefer to face those issues rather than sit back while the nation commits suicide. This choice is also made easier for them, as many of them are starting at the same point as you are. They don't believe maintaining the birth rate is that vital. They don't know or don't believe in the benefits of free trade. They believe that kicking out 20 million consumers is fine because Americans will be producing for Americans now and not the Chinese. It's easy to sell people on economic policies that have seen benefits and unseen costs, even if overall they cost society as a whole.