6 ms·

Humans don't have to work. We can sleep in the rain and hunt and gather to survive like the animals. Although I would argue hunting and foraging is work, so m

by DougN7 10y ago

Humans don't have to work. We can sleep in the rain and hunt and gather to survive like the animals. Although I would argue hunting and foraging is work, so most animals don't get out of it either.

TulliusCicero 10y ago
And hunting and gathering isn't work...how? Not to mention you'd still have to make your own clothes, your own shelter, take care of children, etc.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lostlogin 10y ago
We wouldn't have to work as much if automation is done right. However it sure looks like we are going to use automation to further concerntrate wealth.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  >> However it sure looks like we are going to use automation to further concerntrate wealth. The only problem I have this statement is if you do not believe in the notion of freewill, then yes this is accurate. If you believe in the notion of freewill, then you would think instead of seeing what's happening and think that all the wealth is being concentrated into the top 1% of society unfairly, what's to stop you from being in that 1%? Nearly every obstacle you will list, I can name several people who have overcome those impediments to be successful. When you stop thinking the deck is stacked against you, it frees your mind to think of what your capable of, not of the greater odds that stacked against that will prevent you from achieving what you want to.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    By definition, only 1% of the population can be in the top 1%. Do you want to tell me that anybody can become part of the top 1%?
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    > If you believe in the notion of freewill, then you would think instead of seeing what's happening and think that all the wealth is being concentrated into the top 1% of society unfairly, what's to stop you from being in that 1%? The free will of the top 1% that don't want to have their wealth diminished by sharing it with others. The practical impacts of poor education and healthcare leading to delayed educational and/or career opportunities. Businesses buying politicians to diminish individual access to education, healthcare, and other opportunities. Politicians and businesspeople working to reduce worker rights to fair wages and safe working conditions. Politicians working to disenfranchise voters, which in turns leads to their lack of representation and further diminishing their status and reducing their chances of success in life. > Nearly every obstacle you will list, I can name several people who have overcome those impediments to be successful. Anecdotes, almost as useful as real data. > When you stop thinking the deck is stacked against you, it frees your mind to think of what your capable of, not of the greater odds that stacked against that will prevent you from achieving what you want to. This is true, and it is mentally and emotionally freeing once you're out of the mindset. It doesn't negate the fact that, for many people, the odds are still, in fact, stacked against them.
  - jly 10y ago
    Striving to be in the top 1% is not an acceptable answer to the concentration of wealth issue. Not everyone is in a position to do that and not everyone wants to measure success by wealth. This ignores the damage that wealth concentration and business-driven decisions affect people and the environment. I don't want to live in a world we've destroyed, even if i can be in the top 0.1% of it. That's the issue.
  - tyfon 10y ago
    The 1% group is quite hereditary[1] There are of course exceptions, but you are much more likely to end up in the 1% if your parents are also in that segment. In the US I have the feeling that a lot of people support its social structure because they believe themselves to be future [mb]illionaires, aka the American dream. In Europe where most realize that they will never end up in that spot, even with hard work, there is a much more egalitarian structure to society. I'm not saying any of them are bad, but the notion that everyone can reach the 1% is by definition false. Only 1% of the population can be in that spot. You can via social structures even it out though so more people can share in the generated wealth. And I think that is actually free will since the social structure is chosen unless one lives under a dictatorship or such. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715735-new-data-show-joining-1-remains-unsettlingly-hereditary-skipping-class http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715735-new-dat...
  - rexpop 10y ago
    > what's to stop you from being in that 1%? You wrote this like it were a rhetorical question, but let's talk about social mobility. Wikipedia[1] will tell you that it's "movement of individuals... between social strata." Surely you'll agree that "the 1%" is a prime example of a social stratum, and that becoming a member of that stratum is a clear movement. Obstacles lie between them. To overcome these obstacles one requires capital: economic, social and cultural. If you start without them, you'll not go far. Physics are relentless. It may be impossible — within one lifetime — to navigate the socially constructed maze from third-generation-diabetic-of-color to business services firm partner, despite the two persons being physically proximal! Yes, one can and must make decisions in this life, and if one has free will then by all means, enjoy the faculty, but one is not free to purchase items that aren't in store. One is not free to pull levers that aren't available. You might ask "why do poor folk fall prey to predatory lenders? Why not invest that windfall in a CD, or a more appropriate financial vehicle?" But that question only exposes your naïveté: some folk have simply never heard of the phrase "financial vehicle". They lack the cultural capital to even see the social constructs allegedly available to them. They are literally blind to them. Free will does not enable one to open invisible doors. Apologies for this long-winded tirade: your rhetorical question struck me as absurdly naive. You claim you "can name several people who have overcome those impediments," but "several" is not a statistically significant number, and will not convince a rational person that the United States has high social mobility. What's to stop one from being in that 1%? Massive, invisible, entrenched social constructs requiring immense luck or capital to navigate. And then your "free" will — certainly not free of biases, neuroses or addictions — can still fuck it up. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
    - rexpop 10y ago
      https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence/ https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-14...
- adrianN 10y ago
  We wouldn't have to work as much if we didn't want to buy all the gizmos. https://orionmagazine.org/article/the-gospel-of-consumption/ https://orionmagazine.org/article/the-gospel-of-consumption/
  - AJ007 10y ago
    A great deal of (US) income consumption goes toward people bidding against each other just on where to live. Take out wildly overpriced education, healthcare, and housing, and you can get by with barely working. 40% of Americans over 16 don't work at all, granted they may rely on government transfer payments and other services. https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000 https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Given that 21% ish of the population is under 16, that leaves a total of just under half the population doing any paid work. This seems surprisingly low to me. https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Nope: Anti-vagrancy laws, hunting laws, trespassing laws for private land, usage laws for public land. We are an industrialized, domesticated species, whether we like it or not.

by DougN7 10y ago

Humans don't have to work. We can sleep in the rain and hunt and gather to survive like the animals. Although I would argue hunting and foraging is work, so most animals don't get out of it either.

TulliusCicero 10y ago

And hunting and gathering isn't work...how? Not to mention you'd still have to make your own clothes, your own shelter, take care of children, etc.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lostlogin 10y ago

We wouldn't have to work as much if automation is done right. However it sure looks like we are going to use automation to further concerntrate wealth.

at-fates-hands 10y ago
>> However it sure looks like we are going to use automation to further concerntrate wealth. The only problem I have this statement is if you do not believe in the notion of freewill, then yes this is accurate. If you believe in the notion of freewill, then you would think instead of seeing what's happening and think that all the wealth is being concentrated into the top 1% of society unfairly, what's to stop you from being in that 1%? Nearly every obstacle you will list, I can name several people who have overcome those impediments to be successful. When you stop thinking the deck is stacked against you, it frees your mind to think of what your capable of, not of the greater odds that stacked against that will prevent you from achieving what you want to.
- adrianN 10y ago
  By definition, only 1% of the population can be in the top 1%. Do you want to tell me that anybody can become part of the top 1%?
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  > If you believe in the notion of freewill, then you would think instead of seeing what's happening and think that all the wealth is being concentrated into the top 1% of society unfairly, what's to stop you from being in that 1%? The free will of the top 1% that don't want to have their wealth diminished by sharing it with others. The practical impacts of poor education and healthcare leading to delayed educational and/or career opportunities. Businesses buying politicians to diminish individual access to education, healthcare, and other opportunities. Politicians and businesspeople working to reduce worker rights to fair wages and safe working conditions. Politicians working to disenfranchise voters, which in turns leads to their lack of representation and further diminishing their status and reducing their chances of success in life. > Nearly every obstacle you will list, I can name several people who have overcome those impediments to be successful. Anecdotes, almost as useful as real data. > When you stop thinking the deck is stacked against you, it frees your mind to think of what your capable of, not of the greater odds that stacked against that will prevent you from achieving what you want to. This is true, and it is mentally and emotionally freeing once you're out of the mindset. It doesn't negate the fact that, for many people, the odds are still, in fact, stacked against them.
- jly 10y ago
  Striving to be in the top 1% is not an acceptable answer to the concentration of wealth issue. Not everyone is in a position to do that and not everyone wants to measure success by wealth. This ignores the damage that wealth concentration and business-driven decisions affect people and the environment. I don't want to live in a world we've destroyed, even if i can be in the top 0.1% of it. That's the issue.
- tyfon 10y ago
  The 1% group is quite hereditary[1] There are of course exceptions, but you are much more likely to end up in the 1% if your parents are also in that segment. In the US I have the feeling that a lot of people support its social structure because they believe themselves to be future [mb]illionaires, aka the American dream. In Europe where most realize that they will never end up in that spot, even with hard work, there is a much more egalitarian structure to society. I'm not saying any of them are bad, but the notion that everyone can reach the 1% is by definition false. Only 1% of the population can be in that spot. You can via social structures even it out though so more people can share in the generated wealth. And I think that is actually free will since the social structure is chosen unless one lives under a dictatorship or such. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715735-new-data-show-joining-1-remains-unsettlingly-hereditary-skipping-class http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715735-new-dat...
- rexpop 10y ago
  > what's to stop you from being in that 1%? You wrote this like it were a rhetorical question, but let's talk about social mobility. Wikipedia[1] will tell you that it's "movement of individuals... between social strata." Surely you'll agree that "the 1%" is a prime example of a social stratum, and that becoming a member of that stratum is a clear movement. Obstacles lie between them. To overcome these obstacles one requires capital: economic, social and cultural. If you start without them, you'll not go far. Physics are relentless. It may be impossible — within one lifetime — to navigate the socially constructed maze from third-generation-diabetic-of-color to business services firm partner, despite the two persons being physically proximal! Yes, one can and must make decisions in this life, and if one has free will then by all means, enjoy the faculty, but one is not free to purchase items that aren't in store. One is not free to pull levers that aren't available. You might ask "why do poor folk fall prey to predatory lenders? Why not invest that windfall in a CD, or a more appropriate financial vehicle?" But that question only exposes your naïveté: some folk have simply never heard of the phrase "financial vehicle". They lack the cultural capital to even see the social constructs allegedly available to them. They are literally blind to them. Free will does not enable one to open invisible doors. Apologies for this long-winded tirade: your rhetorical question struck me as absurdly naive. You claim you "can name several people who have overcome those impediments," but "several" is not a statistically significant number, and will not convince a rational person that the United States has high social mobility. What's to stop one from being in that 1%? Massive, invisible, entrenched social constructs requiring immense luck or capital to navigate. And then your "free" will — certainly not free of biases, neuroses or addictions — can still fuck it up. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
  - rexpop 10y ago
    https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence/ https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-14...
adrianN 10y ago
We wouldn't have to work as much if we didn't want to buy all the gizmos. https://orionmagazine.org/article/the-gospel-of-consumption/ https://orionmagazine.org/article/the-gospel-of-consumption/
- AJ007 10y ago
  A great deal of (US) income consumption goes toward people bidding against each other just on where to live. Take out wildly overpriced education, healthcare, and housing, and you can get by with barely working. 40% of Americans over 16 don't work at all, granted they may rely on government transfer payments and other services. https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000 https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Given that 21% ish of the population is under 16, that leaves a total of just under half the population doing any paid work. This seems surprisingly low to me. https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

Nope: Anti-vagrancy laws, hunting laws, trespassing laws for private land, usage laws for public land. We are an industrialized, domesticated species, whether we like it or not.