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>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry le

>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks. Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech companies are literally unable to fill these positions! i swear!

pm90 10y ago
> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.
- unprepare 10y ago
  > Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!
  - pm90 10y ago
    Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time. I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.
    - unprepare 10y ago
      I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point. You claim that H1B's: 1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming 2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees. So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job titles of H1B visa holders.[1] Turns out the number 1 title by far, is 'Programmer Analyst' kinda vague, so lets try to dig in and see what that really is. To do that, we can look for the top H1B visa employers[2] that appears to be Cognizant at 15,680 in 2015, followed by Infosys and TATA. Well now that we know who the top employer of H1Bs is and what the top job title is, should be pretty easy to find an open position on their job board, right? Then we can look at the requirements for the 'Programmer Analyst' job and see what exactly is so specialized that no US college graduate is capable of accomplishing. Weirdly, even though they filled over 33,000 of this job merely 2 years ago (an average of almost 100 jobs filled per day!) There is only 1 single job posting for a 'Programmer Analyst'[3] Even weirder! the requirements for this job: >Requirement: Basic computer knowledge, Good Communication skills and willing to work in night shifts Well, that doesnt seem like such a demanding position to me.... Infosys had 0 job listings under that same title, TATA's careers site has no job listings at all[4] But yeah, maybe you are right, maybe its just a coincidence that the top H1B job title has only 1 single listing across the top 3 H1B visa employers. Better keep letting them hire immigrants, since those stupid college grads 'cant code to save their lives' as you so put it. [1]http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=JT http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.asp... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_by_visas_approved https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_b... [3]https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail.ftl?job=00021358981 https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail.... [4]http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career
      - pm90 10y ago
        Let me repeat that I am not denying the existence of H1B fraud. I am saying that H1B can and should be used for entry level positions as well. And if there are companies abusing the system, as you point out, they are breaking the law. They should be prosecuted and stopped.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.
  - pm90 10y ago
    I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.
    - unprepare 10y ago
      so you are making an assumption that no one who graduates with a CS degree has had to get a part time job? are you serious?
- dxhdr 10y ago
  > Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. How about a little on-the-job training? Let's be honest, the real issue isn't talent. These H1B applicants are willing to sacrifice their lives for your company whereas your average entry-level American engineer may prioritize something else.
  - pm90 10y ago
    Bringing someone over to the US on a H1B is an expensive, time consuming, mind-numbingly long affair. The only companies that I see doing that is if they have no other options at all.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      expensive relative to the savings of competing on the market? "time consuming, mind-numbingly long" doesn't matter much if it's in your business model to do this at scale. In fact, it would be an explicit competitive advantage.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > demand far outstrips supply and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages. > can't code even if their life depended on it No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding. If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.
  - pm90 10y ago
    > and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages. I'm not going to argue any more on this reasoning at all. I have explained quite clearly why this kind of thinking is incorrect and hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either. See my peer comments. > No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding. > If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Of course my evidence for shortage is anecdotal. You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand. That is my only "evidence".
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > See my peer comments. I've seen them, don't find them convincing, but will respond to those. > my evidence for shortage is anecdotal I'm not entirely sure which anecdotes, unless you explain your personal experience. > You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply yep > and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand Maybe. CS grads aren't the only source of software developers; but in any case, there is nothing wrong with demand being higher than supply, it's perfectly fine that demand be unsatisfied in the same way it's fine that supply be unsatisfied.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply. What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?
  - pm90 10y ago
    > What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price? Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up. edit: missed a "don't"
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]

pm90 10y ago

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

unprepare 10y ago
> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!
- pm90 10y ago
  Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time. I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.
  - unprepare 10y ago
    I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point. You claim that H1B's: 1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming 2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees. So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job titles of H1B visa holders.[1] Turns out the number 1 title by far, is 'Programmer Analyst' kinda vague, so lets try to dig in and see what that really is. To do that, we can look for the top H1B visa employers[2] that appears to be Cognizant at 15,680 in 2015, followed by Infosys and TATA. Well now that we know who the top employer of H1Bs is and what the top job title is, should be pretty easy to find an open position on their job board, right? Then we can look at the requirements for the 'Programmer Analyst' job and see what exactly is so specialized that no US college graduate is capable of accomplishing. Weirdly, even though they filled over 33,000 of this job merely 2 years ago (an average of almost 100 jobs filled per day!) There is only 1 single job posting for a 'Programmer Analyst'[3] Even weirder! the requirements for this job: >Requirement: Basic computer knowledge, Good Communication skills and willing to work in night shifts Well, that doesnt seem like such a demanding position to me.... Infosys had 0 job listings under that same title, TATA's careers site has no job listings at all[4] But yeah, maybe you are right, maybe its just a coincidence that the top H1B job title has only 1 single listing across the top 3 H1B visa employers. Better keep letting them hire immigrants, since those stupid college grads 'cant code to save their lives' as you so put it. [1]http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=JT http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.asp... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_by_visas_approved https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_b... [3]https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail.ftl?job=00021358981 https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail.... [4]http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career
    - pm90 10y ago
      Let me repeat that I am not denying the existence of H1B fraud. I am saying that H1B can and should be used for entry level positions as well. And if there are companies abusing the system, as you point out, they are breaking the law. They should be prosecuted and stopped.
rdtsc 10y ago
> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.
- pm90 10y ago
  I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.
  - unprepare 10y ago
    so you are making an assumption that no one who graduates with a CS degree has had to get a part time job? are you serious?
dxhdr 10y ago
> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. How about a little on-the-job training? Let's be honest, the real issue isn't talent. These H1B applicants are willing to sacrifice their lives for your company whereas your average entry-level American engineer may prioritize something else.
- pm90 10y ago
  Bringing someone over to the US on a H1B is an expensive, time consuming, mind-numbingly long affair. The only companies that I see doing that is if they have no other options at all.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    expensive relative to the savings of competing on the market? "time consuming, mind-numbingly long" doesn't matter much if it's in your business model to do this at scale. In fact, it would be an explicit competitive advantage.
Chris2048 10y ago
> demand far outstrips supply and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages. > can't code even if their life depended on it No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding. If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.
- pm90 10y ago
  > and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages. I'm not going to argue any more on this reasoning at all. I have explained quite clearly why this kind of thinking is incorrect and hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either. See my peer comments. > No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding. > If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Of course my evidence for shortage is anecdotal. You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand. That is my only "evidence".
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > See my peer comments. I've seen them, don't find them convincing, but will respond to those. > my evidence for shortage is anecdotal I'm not entirely sure which anecdotes, unless you explain your personal experience. > You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply yep > and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand Maybe. CS grads aren't the only source of software developers; but in any case, there is nothing wrong with demand being higher than supply, it's perfectly fine that demand be unsatisfied in the same way it's fine that supply be unsatisfied.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply. What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?
- pm90 10y ago
  > What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price? Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up. edit: missed a "don't"
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]