4 ms·

If an interpreter is so rare that one can't be found in the US and they need to be hired internationally, then maybe it's worth it to pay $100,000?

whatever_dude 10y ago
"It's worth it" only applies if a company is directly going to make a ton of money out of that person. Not every company operates like that. I know it's hard to believe, or even comprehend, in the tech world.
untog 10y ago
Obviously we can't know what the organisation doing the hiring is like in this fictional scenario, but $100k would be a huge, huge amount for non-senior staff in rural Alabama no matter what. The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else.
- googletazer 10y ago
  Then they can't afford to run. I'd also love to bring say professional 3D modellers and animators from Eastern Europe or Brazil and pay then 20k CAD/year, but thats not how reality works. All of these programs (hb1/etc...) are basically wage arbitrage schemes and have little to do with presence/absence of talent.
  - untog 10y ago
    There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But you might be able to bring a translator to rural Alabama. If the aim of the H1B program was to bring in the highest possible paid workers, you'd be correct. But it isn't. These programs are designed in such a way that all states can benefit from them, and a variety of professions.
    - waqf 10y ago
      Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? You appear to have raised that question, and then shied away from that phrasing in your answer.
      - untog 10y ago
        Luckily for me, you, and the internet at large, Google lets you look up information on large government programs. Not sure what is "bizarre" about me "shying away" from duplicating publicly available information. "The H-1B program applies to employers seeking to hire nonimmigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is one that requires the application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and the attainment of at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm You will note that the word "salary" does not appear in that description.
        mancerayder 10y ago
        It says, "or fashion models," amusingly. I guess not only is there a tech shortage, but we're too unattractive to find our own fashion models, too. Unless fashion model is a legal euphemism for someone at the top tier of new tech or skills? edit: Like, some sexy new JavaScript framework or some ancient functional language. I think they're referring to real fashion models, though, amazingly.
      - gumby 10y ago
        > Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? It is to make it possible for foreigners to provide work to US organizations when no local person is available. I have hired many many people on H1s. It was always a hire of last resort: when we could not find someone local. It always cost us a lot more than a local person: in both legal fees and procedural fees (you need to verify that the salary you are paying is not lower than the prevailing wage, which is totally fair) not to mention that it takes a while to get the person so while you're messing about you have nobody to fill the job. Some people are unusually distinguished (perhaps expert in a particular machine or language) but lack the appropriate degree, and they are even harder to bring in. I have a hard time complaining about that (and I'm an immigrant myself). I think it's totally fair that the system should be biased towards locals. But the system does need an escape mechanism when nobody local can do the work. There are problems. The big outsourcing companies (not just Indian ones but IBM) flood the lottery early. Also somehow they apparently/allegedly pay below market rate, which I don't understand. As usual it's the startups that get screwed. Note this H-1 is to bring someone here. If I could outsource I would (to Alabama or Amadebad, it would be all the same to me). When we can get away with a distributed team we hire people where they already are.
- TulliusCicero 10y ago
  If you factor in cost of living, the consulting agencies that currently abuse the system will just open up offices in cheap areas.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    Which would in my opinion even be a good consequence.
  - davidf18 10y ago
    Not really, because quality software development generally requires teams to be in close proximity. As has been discovered by many firms, moving operations overseas is "penny wise and pound foolish" For example, Disney of Florida replaced 250 American IT workers in US using immigrants with H1-B Visas. They in theory could have saved more money by sending that operation overseas but they chose not too. Computer operations today are way too mission critical to most organizations to risk problems by moving tech overseas at least in operational settings.
    - gopalv 10y ago
      > using immigrants with H1-B Visas I think that's the problem here - those on H1-B visas aren't immigrants. It is a dual intent visa and most outsourcing firms keep it strictly in the non-immigrant category. Until they get a DoL clearance & get into an I-140 approval process, they're "temporary workers" who can be dispensed with any day.
  - untog 10y ago
    The H1B already factors in cost of living (via the proxy of what local salaries are) and we don't see that happening all that much.
- unityByFreedom 10y ago
  > The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else. Perhaps that's Trump's plan.

whatever_dude 10y ago

"It's worth it" only applies if a company is directly going to make a ton of money out of that person. Not every company operates like that. I know it's hard to believe, or even comprehend, in the tech world.

untog 10y ago

Obviously we can't know what the organisation doing the hiring is like in this fictional scenario, but $100k would be a huge, huge amount for non-senior staff in rural Alabama no matter what. The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else.

googletazer 10y ago
Then they can't afford to run. I'd also love to bring say professional 3D modellers and animators from Eastern Europe or Brazil and pay then 20k CAD/year, but thats not how reality works. All of these programs (hb1/etc...) are basically wage arbitrage schemes and have little to do with presence/absence of talent.
- untog 10y ago
  There is no universal H1B salary. Translators do not earn as much as developers, in general. People living in Alabama do not earn as much as those working in Silicon Valley, in general. H1B applications go through a "labor condition application" for this exact reason - the government approves the salary, based on industry and location. Therefore, you can't bring 3D developers to Silicon Valley and pay them $20k. But you might be able to bring a translator to rural Alabama. If the aim of the H1B program was to bring in the highest possible paid workers, you'd be correct. But it isn't. These programs are designed in such a way that all states can benefit from them, and a variety of professions.
  - waqf 10y ago
    Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? You appear to have raised that question, and then shied away from that phrasing in your answer.
    - untog 10y ago
      Luckily for me, you, and the internet at large, Google lets you look up information on large government programs. Not sure what is "bizarre" about me "shying away" from duplicating publicly available information. "The H-1B program applies to employers seeking to hire nonimmigrant aliens as workers in specialty occupations or as fashion models of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is one that requires the application of a body of highly specialized knowledge and the attainment of at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm You will note that the word "salary" does not appear in that description.
      - mancerayder 10y ago
        It says, "or fashion models," amusingly. I guess not only is there a tech shortage, but we're too unattractive to find our own fashion models, too. Unless fashion model is a legal euphemism for someone at the top tier of new tech or skills? edit: Like, some sexy new JavaScript framework or some ancient functional language. I think they're referring to real fashion models, though, amazingly.
    - gumby 10y ago
      > Ok, what is the aim of the H1B program? It is to make it possible for foreigners to provide work to US organizations when no local person is available. I have hired many many people on H1s. It was always a hire of last resort: when we could not find someone local. It always cost us a lot more than a local person: in both legal fees and procedural fees (you need to verify that the salary you are paying is not lower than the prevailing wage, which is totally fair) not to mention that it takes a while to get the person so while you're messing about you have nobody to fill the job. Some people are unusually distinguished (perhaps expert in a particular machine or language) but lack the appropriate degree, and they are even harder to bring in. I have a hard time complaining about that (and I'm an immigrant myself). I think it's totally fair that the system should be biased towards locals. But the system does need an escape mechanism when nobody local can do the work. There are problems. The big outsourcing companies (not just Indian ones but IBM) flood the lottery early. Also somehow they apparently/allegedly pay below market rate, which I don't understand. As usual it's the startups that get screwed. Note this H-1 is to bring someone here. If I could outsource I would (to Alabama or Amadebad, it would be all the same to me). When we can get away with a distributed team we hire people where they already are.
TulliusCicero 10y ago
If you factor in cost of living, the consulting agencies that currently abuse the system will just open up offices in cheap areas.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Which would in my opinion even be a good consequence.
- davidf18 10y ago
  Not really, because quality software development generally requires teams to be in close proximity. As has been discovered by many firms, moving operations overseas is "penny wise and pound foolish" For example, Disney of Florida replaced 250 American IT workers in US using immigrants with H1-B Visas. They in theory could have saved more money by sending that operation overseas but they chose not too. Computer operations today are way too mission critical to most organizations to risk problems by moving tech overseas at least in operational settings.
  - gopalv 10y ago
    > using immigrants with H1-B Visas I think that's the problem here - those on H1-B visas aren't immigrants. It is a dual intent visa and most outsourcing firms keep it strictly in the non-immigrant category. Until they get a DoL clearance & get into an I-140 approval process, they're "temporary workers" who can be dispensed with any day.
- untog 10y ago
  The H1B already factors in cost of living (via the proxy of what local salaries are) and we don't see that happening all that much.
unityByFreedom 10y ago
> The problem with a hard salary floor is that it doesn't account for differences in cost of living at all. It would very quickly become the visa of coastal cities and little else. Perhaps that's Trump's plan.