9 ms·

It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting

It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting I think this is a good idea. If you check my posting history, you'll discover I'm an outspoken proponent of open borders.]

selectodude 10y ago
A movie ticket doesn't guarantee entry to a movie, either. But that would be bananas if they didn't let you in after you bought it.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Actually, it does. It's a contract, although your claim to relief is limited to a refund.
  - waqf 10y ago
    Enforcement of contracts is ultimately dependent on the goodwill of the state, just as honouring visas is.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jacquesm 10y ago
I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my favor. Even so, if my country started to structurally refuse entry to foreigners who had - at their expense and with considerable documentation requirements - obtained a visa in the legal way I'd be quite upset and in fact highly surprised. See, even though a visa is not a guarantee the general rule is that they are not withdrawn capriciously and if you do that you risk making people from other countries wonder if it is worth applying for a visa in the first place.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I agree that this is a really dumb idea. I oppose it completely. I'm just disagreeing with the very specific "breach of contract" claim. I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. But since Trump (or other similar villain) wasn't the president at the time, no one really cared.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. That's along the lines of if something happens to one person it is a tragedy but if it happens to a lot of people it is statistics. The numbers are now high enough that it has become a statistic, and one worth noticing. It also draws attention because the list of 7 countries could easily be expanded (on a twitter inspired whim no less). It's the capriciousness and the uncertainty coupled with the numbers that make it an item, not because it is Trump or someone else at the helm, if Obama would have done this it would have resulted in much the same level of pushback.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      It's hardly clear that folks would object. Obama is actually the one who came up with the list of 7 countries and authorized this in the Terrorist Travel Prevention act of 2015. It's unclear that this list can be expanded on a whim. https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-m... Obama did something similar in 2012 to little protest. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/03/iraqi-refugees-siv-obama/1#.WJNdc8tOnJB http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/03... Again, I'm against this. But this is hardly unprecedented or shocking - the only shocking thing is that one of our cultural enemies won a popularity contest and then did this.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        The hijacking of the GOP will be studied for a long long time in political circles and universities. I can only imagine the calculus going on in the conservative party at the moment, it must be something along the lines of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't', when the music stops playing it will get ugly.

selectodude 10y ago

A movie ticket doesn't guarantee entry to a movie, either. But that would be bananas if they didn't let you in after you bought it.

Spooky23 10y ago
Actually, it does. It's a contract, although your claim to relief is limited to a refund.
- waqf 10y ago
  Enforcement of contracts is ultimately dependent on the goodwill of the state, just as honouring visas is.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jacquesm 10y ago

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my favor. Even so, if my country started to structurally refuse entry to foreigners who had - at their expense and with considerable documentation requirements - obtained a visa in the legal way I'd be quite upset and in fact highly surprised. See, even though a visa is not a guarantee the general rule is that they are not withdrawn capriciously and if you do that you risk making people from other countries wonder if it is worth applying for a visa in the first place.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I agree that this is a really dumb idea. I oppose it completely. I'm just disagreeing with the very specific "breach of contract" claim. I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. But since Trump (or other similar villain) wasn't the president at the time, no one really cared.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. That's along the lines of if something happens to one person it is a tragedy but if it happens to a lot of people it is statistics. The numbers are now high enough that it has become a statistic, and one worth noticing. It also draws attention because the list of 7 countries could easily be expanded (on a twitter inspired whim no less). It's the capriciousness and the uncertainty coupled with the numbers that make it an item, not because it is Trump or someone else at the helm, if Obama would have done this it would have resulted in much the same level of pushback.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    It's hardly clear that folks would object. Obama is actually the one who came up with the list of 7 countries and authorized this in the Terrorist Travel Prevention act of 2015. It's unclear that this list can be expanded on a whim. https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-m... Obama did something similar in 2012 to little protest. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/03/iraqi-refugees-siv-obama/1#.WJNdc8tOnJB http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/03... Again, I'm against this. But this is hardly unprecedented or shocking - the only shocking thing is that one of our cultural enemies won a popularity contest and then did this.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      The hijacking of the GOP will be studied for a long long time in political circles and universities. I can only imagine the calculus going on in the conservative party at the moment, it must be something along the lines of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't', when the music stops playing it will get ugly.