6 ms·

Immigration has been uncertain for a long time. YCombinator founders have been working on their startups on 3-month visitor visas. Top graduate students can sta

by tomp 10y ago

Immigration has been uncertain for a long time. YCombinator founders have been working on their startups on 3-month visitor visas. Top graduate students can stay in the US for a year, then they need to enter a lottery to be allowed to stay for another few years. Trump changes barely anything. Unpaywalled: http://archive.is/BHfyN http://archive.is/BHfyN

jacquesm 10y ago
Trump changes plenty, in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued, now it turns out not to be the case. Essentially this is breach of contract.
- chrischen 10y ago
  Yea but who will stop him?
  - rsfern 10y ago
    Congress, hopefully. Call your senators and representatives! There's a Senate bill that needs support. https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/248 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/248
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      Oh please. Congress has been stuffed with GOP people who are in league with him. The only time they complain is when he does something that isn't conservative enough for them, like when he issued a statement that his administration would uphold the LGBT anti-discrimination order from Obama, and a few GOP congressmen complained how this infringes "religious freedom". The only people in Congress who'll oppose him are (some) Democrats, who simply aren't numerous enough to make a difference. You might as well get used to the new reality; Trump has the power to do almost anything he wants, unless it's so bad that it pisses off much of the GOP.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > The only time they complain is when he does something that isn't conservative enough for them That's not entirely fair. Several Republicans have objected to things he's done on other bases, including the immigration E.O. The partisan duopoly created by the structure of the electoral system creates an illusion of a simple unidimensional political divide, and partisan tribalism is high, but, still, even conservatives in Congress sometimes have more nuanced policy views than "is it conservative enough?"
        Arizhel 10y ago
        >That's not entirely fair. Several Republicans have objected to things he's done on other bases, including the immigration E.O. Ok, to be fair, out of several hundred Republicans, you're going to find a few here and there who object to many things he does (and the ones who object will be different, based on the issue). Similarly on the Democrat side, you're going to find a few here and there who break ranks with the rest of the Dems and side with him. But by and large, you're not going to see any unified opposition from the GOP. You might from the Dems, but that doesn't matter much because they're a minority in Congress.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Unified opposition from Dems + some opposition from the GOP can be enough to constitute a majority, though. (It's why the DeVos nomination is on the edge of failing right now.)
        Arizhel 10y ago
        Yes, I'll admit that in some extreme cases like that, Congress might be able to push back against Trump. But it has to be pretty ridiculous it seems (DeVos is an especially horrible pick).
      - rsfern 10y ago
        Eh, I don't disagree with you that Congress is pretty one-sided right now, and unlikely to meaningfully oppose the executive branch, but I don't think your fatalistic attitude is all that productive. I don't think it's without merit to call up the sympathetic offices to thank and encourage them, or to call up the offices supporting Trump's more egregious policies to express dissatisfaction. Who knows, maybe if more people did this, we wouldn't be in such a polarized mess right now.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    The resistance is led by Teen Vogue, Badlands National Park, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Plus some Hollywood stars that wouldn't know about politics if it bit their arse.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    We will.
- krapp 10y ago
  >Essentially this is breach of contract. Trump has altered the deal. Pray he doesn't alter it any further.
  - ethbro 10y ago
    Anyone passing through customs from a country that begins with 'L' must now ride this unicycle?
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting I think this is a good idea. If you check my posting history, you'll discover I'm an outspoken proponent of open borders.]
  - selectodude 10y ago
    A movie ticket doesn't guarantee entry to a movie, either. But that would be bananas if they didn't let you in after you bought it.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      Actually, it does. It's a contract, although your claim to relief is limited to a refund.
      - waqf 10y ago
        Enforcement of contracts is ultimately dependent on the goodwill of the state, just as honouring visas is.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my favor. Even so, if my country started to structurally refuse entry to foreigners who had - at their expense and with considerable documentation requirements - obtained a visa in the legal way I'd be quite upset and in fact highly surprised. See, even though a visa is not a guarantee the general rule is that they are not withdrawn capriciously and if you do that you risk making people from other countries wonder if it is worth applying for a visa in the first place.
- refurb 10y ago
  in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued What do you mean by "honor"? A visa don't guarantee entry. It simply gives you a path to enter the country which includes inspection by immigration control. They make that very clear on the USCIS website and all the visa forms. A U.S. visa in his/her passport gives a foreign citizen permission to apply to enter the United States. A visa by itself doesn’t authorize entry to the U.S. A visa simply indicates that your application has been reviewed by a consular officer at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate, and that the officer determined you’re eligible to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry for a specific purpose..... At the port-of-entry, a U.S. immigration officer of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) decides whether to allow you to enter and how long you can stay for any particular visit, as part of the Admission process. Only the U.S. immigration officer has the authority to permit you to enter the United States." [1]https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/visa-expiration-date.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/visa-expir...
  - ericd 10y ago
    In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. It's not worth it for most to risk the substantial financial/time outlay to travel/move halfway around the world to visit a country that has a good chance of not letting you in once you arrive on its doorstep.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. And in the vast majority of the cases, it is. Immigrants from the 7 countries that Obama designated in the Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 [1], and authorized suspension of entry for, make up a tiny fraction of visas. [1] https://www.niacaction.org/update-frequently-asked-questions-on-the-visa-waiver-restrictions-may-12/ https://www.niacaction.org/update-frequently-asked-questions... https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-m...
      - 10y ago
- baursak 10y ago
  > Essentially this is breach of contract. That's Trump's MO it seems. In other news today that fit this pattern: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/01/512928851/trumps-company-loses-lawsuit-filed-by-golf-club-members http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/01/512928851/...
- crdb 10y ago
  > Look at the way the Chinese do it. When they have friends they make sure that they are a friend for a long time and they make sure you know it. And there is no doubt about their intent and their ability to sustain a policy over many General Secretaries. They consider it an advantage they have over you. Each time a new team takes over, there is continuity, if they need to adjust, they adjust, but they do not start from scratch and have a new learning curve each time. If America is not able to play the same game in the same league, then your friends will say, I want to be friends with the US but to what extent can I depend on the US? http://www.pmo.gov.sg/newsroom/pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview-wall-street-journal-wsj http://www.pmo.gov.sg/newsroom/pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview...
- budu3 10y ago
  > in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued Not true. Having a visa was never a guarantee of entry into the US. Entry was always at the discretion of the border agent at the port of entry [1]. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/frequently-asked-questions/what-is-a-u-s-visa.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/frequently...
RA_Fisher 10y ago
Yep, Obama held the line on the injustice. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it now.
Brajeshwar 10y ago
Totally unrelated to the article, and perhaps a dumb question - How do you get the archive link of a URL?
- slig 10y ago
  Go to https://archive.is https://archive.is and paste the URL of what you want to archive.
- ricardonunez 10y ago
  Go to https://archive.org/web/ https://archive.org/web/ There's an option there.
artificial 10y ago
In addition type O visas have no cap and are what people incorrectly attribute the H1b is for - geniuses instead of pushing out local talent.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ericd 10y ago
  I think we could afford to soak up as much high caliber talent as is willing to emigrate from the rest of the world, without raising the bar to the lofty level of "genius". The brain drain from the rest of the world to the US is a big factor in our ongoing economic competitiveness.
sly010 10y ago
> then they need to enter a lottery to be allowed to stay for another few years There is a separate pool allocated for people with US degrees. Your chances are much more favorable and you are not competing against outsourcing firms. But $130K for a talented but inexperienced graduate is tough...

by tomp 10y ago

jacquesm 10y ago

Trump changes plenty, in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued, now it turns out not to be the case. Essentially this is breach of contract.

chrischen 10y ago
Yea but who will stop him?
- rsfern 10y ago
  Congress, hopefully. Call your senators and representatives! There's a Senate bill that needs support. https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/248 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/248
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    Oh please. Congress has been stuffed with GOP people who are in league with him. The only time they complain is when he does something that isn't conservative enough for them, like when he issued a statement that his administration would uphold the LGBT anti-discrimination order from Obama, and a few GOP congressmen complained how this infringes "religious freedom". The only people in Congress who'll oppose him are (some) Democrats, who simply aren't numerous enough to make a difference. You might as well get used to the new reality; Trump has the power to do almost anything he wants, unless it's so bad that it pisses off much of the GOP.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > The only time they complain is when he does something that isn't conservative enough for them That's not entirely fair. Several Republicans have objected to things he's done on other bases, including the immigration E.O. The partisan duopoly created by the structure of the electoral system creates an illusion of a simple unidimensional political divide, and partisan tribalism is high, but, still, even conservatives in Congress sometimes have more nuanced policy views than "is it conservative enough?"
      - Arizhel 10y ago
        >That's not entirely fair. Several Republicans have objected to things he's done on other bases, including the immigration E.O. Ok, to be fair, out of several hundred Republicans, you're going to find a few here and there who object to many things he does (and the ones who object will be different, based on the issue). Similarly on the Democrat side, you're going to find a few here and there who break ranks with the rest of the Dems and side with him. But by and large, you're not going to see any unified opposition from the GOP. You might from the Dems, but that doesn't matter much because they're a minority in Congress.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        Unified opposition from Dems + some opposition from the GOP can be enough to constitute a majority, though. (It's why the DeVos nomination is on the edge of failing right now.)
        Arizhel 10y ago
        Yes, I'll admit that in some extreme cases like that, Congress might be able to push back against Trump. But it has to be pretty ridiculous it seems (DeVos is an especially horrible pick).
    - rsfern 10y ago
      Eh, I don't disagree with you that Congress is pretty one-sided right now, and unlikely to meaningfully oppose the executive branch, but I don't think your fatalistic attitude is all that productive. I don't think it's without merit to call up the sympathetic offices to thank and encourage them, or to call up the offices supporting Trump's more egregious policies to express dissatisfaction. Who knows, maybe if more people did this, we wouldn't be in such a polarized mess right now.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  The resistance is led by Teen Vogue, Badlands National Park, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Plus some Hollywood stars that wouldn't know about politics if it bit their arse.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  We will.
krapp 10y ago
>Essentially this is breach of contract. Trump has altered the deal. Pray he doesn't alter it any further.
- ethbro 10y ago
  Anyone passing through customs from a country that begins with 'L' must now ride this unicycle?
yummyfajitas 10y ago
It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting I think this is a good idea. If you check my posting history, you'll discover I'm an outspoken proponent of open borders.]
- selectodude 10y ago
  A movie ticket doesn't guarantee entry to a movie, either. But that would be bananas if they didn't let you in after you bought it.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Actually, it does. It's a contract, although your claim to relief is limited to a refund.
    - waqf 10y ago
      Enforcement of contracts is ultimately dependent on the goodwill of the state, just as honouring visas is.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- jacquesm 10y ago
  I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my favor. Even so, if my country started to structurally refuse entry to foreigners who had - at their expense and with considerable documentation requirements - obtained a visa in the legal way I'd be quite upset and in fact highly surprised. See, even though a visa is not a guarantee the general rule is that they are not withdrawn capriciously and if you do that you risk making people from other countries wonder if it is worth applying for a visa in the first place.
refurb 10y ago
in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued What do you mean by "honor"? A visa don't guarantee entry. It simply gives you a path to enter the country which includes inspection by immigration control. They make that very clear on the USCIS website and all the visa forms. A U.S. visa in his/her passport gives a foreign citizen permission to apply to enter the United States. A visa by itself doesn’t authorize entry to the U.S. A visa simply indicates that your application has been reviewed by a consular officer at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate, and that the officer determined you’re eligible to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry for a specific purpose..... At the port-of-entry, a U.S. immigration officer of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) decides whether to allow you to enter and how long you can stay for any particular visit, as part of the Admission process. Only the U.S. immigration officer has the authority to permit you to enter the United States." [1]https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/visa-expiration-date.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/visa-expir...
- ericd 10y ago
  In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. It's not worth it for most to risk the substantial financial/time outlay to travel/move halfway around the world to visit a country that has a good chance of not letting you in once you arrive on its doorstep.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. And in the vast majority of the cases, it is. Immigrants from the 7 countries that Obama designated in the Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 [1], and authorized suspension of entry for, make up a tiny fraction of visas. [1] https://www.niacaction.org/update-frequently-asked-questions-on-the-visa-waiver-restrictions-may-12/ https://www.niacaction.org/update-frequently-asked-questions... https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-m...
    - 10y ago
baursak 10y ago
> Essentially this is breach of contract. That's Trump's MO it seems. In other news today that fit this pattern: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/01/512928851/trumps-company-loses-lawsuit-filed-by-golf-club-members http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/01/512928851/...
crdb 10y ago
> Look at the way the Chinese do it. When they have friends they make sure that they are a friend for a long time and they make sure you know it. And there is no doubt about their intent and their ability to sustain a policy over many General Secretaries. They consider it an advantage they have over you. Each time a new team takes over, there is continuity, if they need to adjust, they adjust, but they do not start from scratch and have a new learning curve each time. If America is not able to play the same game in the same league, then your friends will say, I want to be friends with the US but to what extent can I depend on the US? http://www.pmo.gov.sg/newsroom/pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview-wall-street-journal-wsj http://www.pmo.gov.sg/newsroom/pm-lee-hsien-loongs-interview...
budu3 10y ago
> in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued Not true. Having a visa was never a guarantee of entry into the US. Entry was always at the discretion of the border agent at the port of entry [1]. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/frequently-asked-questions/what-is-a-u-s-visa.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/general/frequently...

RA_Fisher 10y ago

Yep, Obama held the line on the injustice. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it now.

Brajeshwar 10y ago

Totally unrelated to the article, and perhaps a dumb question - How do you get the archive link of a URL?

slig 10y ago
Go to https://archive.is https://archive.is and paste the URL of what you want to archive.
ricardonunez 10y ago
Go to https://archive.org/web/ https://archive.org/web/ There's an option there.

artificial 10y ago

In addition type O visas have no cap and are what people incorrectly attribute the H1b is for - geniuses instead of pushing out local talent.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ericd 10y ago
I think we could afford to soak up as much high caliber talent as is willing to emigrate from the rest of the world, without raising the bar to the lofty level of "genius". The brain drain from the rest of the world to the US is a big factor in our ongoing economic competitiveness.

sly010 10y ago

> then they need to enter a lottery to be allowed to stay for another few years There is a separate pool allocated for people with US degrees. Your chances are much more favorable and you are not competing against outsourcing firms. But $130K for a talented but inexperienced graduate is tough...