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> many people, mostly in the Silicon Valley subculture, are calling Trump an actual fascist, and saying that any CEO collaborating with him is just as evil as h

> many people, mostly in the Silicon Valley subculture, are calling Trump an actual fascist, and saying that any CEO collaborating with him is just as evil as him I mean... how is Trump not an actual fascist? What definition of fascism does Trump not embody? I'm being serious--if he could actually wave a magic wand and create the government/world he wanted, how would this government not be a fascist government? Consider this: Why are Hitler and Mussolini fascists, but not all dictators are fascists? That's the definition of fascism. Now please tell me how that doesn't fit the definition of the government Trump wants? As far as CEO's collaborating with him being evil... Yeah, I would say working for the Trump administration at this point is basically like working with fascists in the 30s. Lots of people did. Many of those companies are still around. People are people. But they're--rightly--not congratulated by history for it. In fact, mostly history says, "They should have taken it more seriously at the time when they had the chance." This is one of those cases where if you're not a fan of fascism, you should be fighting Trump every chance you get. It's not hysteria at all; calling it hysteria is in fact (mostly effective) propaganda.

dudul 10y ago
how is Trump an actual fascist? What definition of fascism does Trump embody? I'm being serious.
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
  - concinds 10y ago
    That would also include George W. Bush. Consider this, written by a prominent geopolitical expert: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is-rising-not_b_10281138.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is...
    - bostik 10y ago
      I am going to get flamed to oblivion for this, but nonetheless: You are not looking far enough in the past. The very textbook definition[0] of fascism (or to be precise - one of the basic definitions) is that it is a political movement that was directly linked with corporatism. Or in other words, a form of government where the major political power is wielded by powerful corporations and furthers primarily their interests.[1] Quoting from [0]: "fascism, especially once in power, [attracts] support primarily from what in a classical sense is called the 'far right' or 'extreme right'." Authoritarianism and police state mentality are both drivers, but also the results of this mentality. Considering how the politics in the western world, US included, have been going for at least the recent half a century... I am going to say that fascism didn't go away with the deaths of Hitler and Mussolini. It has been a dark undercurrent in the US politics (as well as UK and the Scandinavian countries, at least) all this time. We have ALL been on the road back to fascism for decades. It didn't start with G.W. Bush in the US, or with Thatcher in the UK, or with True Finns in Finland, or with whatever the French populist party happens to be called this week. Each one of these is just a manifestation of a more generic right-wing, very much misandry-fuelled swing in public opinion. US has been on its way to fascism for a long time. But you are not alone, your country has just been the most powerful and visible charioteer. If you are willing to accept the link between corporatism and fascism, just think what Lawrence Lessig was not saying in his TED talk, "Country of Lesters".[2] (That's not the official title of the talk but the one it is easiest to find with.) 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism 2a: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g 2b: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim/transcript?language=en http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...
  - dudul 10y ago
    I don't see how he is an authoritarian. He's been operating in the frame of the constitution so far, he's not in favor of the government managing everybody's life. Real fascist governments usually don't believe in free market, in capitalism or in small government in general. He's also very isolationist, clearly not a trait of fascism. We can find a lot of issues with Trump and what he's doing, but calling it "fascist" or "literally Hitler" doesn't help. When we call everything "fascist" the word loses its meaning. The Left has been calling every single Republican president/candidate a "fascist" for the past 2 decades.
    - dave_sullivan 10y ago
      > I don't see how he is an authoritarian. I can't get past this, we must be talking about different things.
concinds 10y ago
> Consider this: Why are Hitler and Mussolini fascists, but not all dictators are fascists? That's the definition of fascism. Now please tell me how that doesn't fit the definition of the government Trump wants? Here's what I can think of: Hitler and Mussolini wanted to create a "New Man", unlike Hussein, Assad, and... Trump. Trump isn't even a dictator yet, and may never become one. The biggest charge you can make against him is that he's pro-oligarchy, and empowers nefarious radical grassroots movements on the right. It may get a lot worse, but we're not there yet, not even close. The real problem is in public opinion, i.e. how to convince people on the right to care more about facts, and make better voting decisions. But rejecting Trump wholesale isn't a solution to that problem. > As far as CEO's collaborating with him being evil... Yeah, I would say working for the Trump administration at this point is basically like working with fascists in the 30s. We're not talking IBM-participating-in-the-Holocaust. We're talking left-wing businessmen getting the president to listen to them about how to best create manufacturing jobs. There's miles of difference between the two. Edit: this article, "Nationalism is Rising, Not Fascism" is a great read. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is-rising-not_b_10281138.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is...
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  > Hitler and Mussolini wanted to create a "New Man", unlike Hussein, Assad, and... Trump. Interesting that you hone in on that; it's true but their views on "men being more manly" do strangely reflect the alt-right and Trump. So yes, this is a fascist-like concept; Trump holds it in spades. > Trump isn't even a dictator yet, and may never become one. Don't quit smoking until you're riddled with cancer? > The biggest charge you can make against him is that he's pro-oligarchy, and empowers nefarious radical grassroots movements on the right. No, that's not the biggest charge, but those are themselves rather strong reasons to not want someone to be president. "He's a fascist" is the biggest charge in my mind. > The real problem is in public opinion, i.e. how to convince people on the right to care more about facts, and make better voting decisions. But rejecting Trump wholesale isn't a solution to that problem. That is A real problem, I agree. It's also a separate (but related) problem. The most acute problem is a fascist president (cancer), an uninformed public is more like "smoking" (the environment the cancer needs to form). > Edit: this article, "Nationalism is Rising, Not Fascism" is a great read. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is.... Thanks! I disagree though; Trump is very very much a fascist, not merely a nationalist (we don't need any more of those either, btw)
CurtMonash 10y ago
There are clear differences between Trump and traditional Fascists. They favored physical violence and military-like discipline. (Mussolini's famous catchphrase was that he'd "Make the trains run on time".) Neither is true of Trump. However, Trump seems like a modernized form. "Verbal" violence online seems more relevant in an era where people don't walk to work in ways that allow them to be physically hassled in the street anyway. H/T David Frum in https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-... for that particular twist.
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  Clear difference in the literal sense, yes (Trump will never pull off a mask and turn out to be ah ha! literally Hitler this whole time) He does favor violence and has said so. He also favors military-like discipline (but not for himself). He doesn't wear a military uniform (that would be very weird) but he's made no secret throughout his career of his appreciation for military discipline and loyalty in his subordinates. I agree, Trump's fascism is a modern incarnation.

dudul 10y ago

how is Trump an actual fascist? What definition of fascism does Trump embody? I'm being serious.

dave_sullivan 10y ago
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
- concinds 10y ago
  That would also include George W. Bush. Consider this, written by a prominent geopolitical expert: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is-rising-not_b_10281138.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is...
  - bostik 10y ago
    I am going to get flamed to oblivion for this, but nonetheless: You are not looking far enough in the past. The very textbook definition[0] of fascism (or to be precise - one of the basic definitions) is that it is a political movement that was directly linked with corporatism. Or in other words, a form of government where the major political power is wielded by powerful corporations and furthers primarily their interests.[1] Quoting from [0]: "fascism, especially once in power, [attracts] support primarily from what in a classical sense is called the 'far right' or 'extreme right'." Authoritarianism and police state mentality are both drivers, but also the results of this mentality. Considering how the politics in the western world, US included, have been going for at least the recent half a century... I am going to say that fascism didn't go away with the deaths of Hitler and Mussolini. It has been a dark undercurrent in the US politics (as well as UK and the Scandinavian countries, at least) all this time. We have ALL been on the road back to fascism for decades. It didn't start with G.W. Bush in the US, or with Thatcher in the UK, or with True Finns in Finland, or with whatever the French populist party happens to be called this week. Each one of these is just a manifestation of a more generic right-wing, very much misandry-fuelled swing in public opinion. US has been on its way to fascism for a long time. But you are not alone, your country has just been the most powerful and visible charioteer. If you are willing to accept the link between corporatism and fascism, just think what Lawrence Lessig was not saying in his TED talk, "Country of Lesters".[2] (That's not the official title of the talk but the one it is easiest to find with.) 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism 2a: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw2z9lV3W1g 2b: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim/transcript?language=en http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...
- dudul 10y ago
  I don't see how he is an authoritarian. He's been operating in the frame of the constitution so far, he's not in favor of the government managing everybody's life. Real fascist governments usually don't believe in free market, in capitalism or in small government in general. He's also very isolationist, clearly not a trait of fascism. We can find a lot of issues with Trump and what he's doing, but calling it "fascist" or "literally Hitler" doesn't help. When we call everything "fascist" the word loses its meaning. The Left has been calling every single Republican president/candidate a "fascist" for the past 2 decades.
  - dave_sullivan 10y ago
    > I don't see how he is an authoritarian. I can't get past this, we must be talking about different things.

concinds 10y ago

> Consider this: Why are Hitler and Mussolini fascists, but not all dictators are fascists? That's the definition of fascism. Now please tell me how that doesn't fit the definition of the government Trump wants? Here's what I can think of: Hitler and Mussolini wanted to create a "New Man", unlike Hussein, Assad, and... Trump. Trump isn't even a dictator yet, and may never become one. The biggest charge you can make against him is that he's pro-oligarchy, and empowers nefarious radical grassroots movements on the right. It may get a lot worse, but we're not there yet, not even close. The real problem is in public opinion, i.e. how to convince people on the right to care more about facts, and make better voting decisions. But rejecting Trump wholesale isn't a solution to that problem. > As far as CEO's collaborating with him being evil... Yeah, I would say working for the Trump administration at this point is basically like working with fascists in the 30s. We're not talking IBM-participating-in-the-Holocaust. We're talking left-wing businessmen getting the president to listen to them about how to best create manufacturing jobs. There's miles of difference between the two. Edit: this article, "Nationalism is Rising, Not Fascism" is a great read. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is-rising-not_b_10281138.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is...

dave_sullivan 10y ago
> Hitler and Mussolini wanted to create a "New Man", unlike Hussein, Assad, and... Trump. Interesting that you hone in on that; it's true but their views on "men being more manly" do strangely reflect the alt-right and Trump. So yes, this is a fascist-like concept; Trump holds it in spades. > Trump isn't even a dictator yet, and may never become one. Don't quit smoking until you're riddled with cancer? > The biggest charge you can make against him is that he's pro-oligarchy, and empowers nefarious radical grassroots movements on the right. No, that's not the biggest charge, but those are themselves rather strong reasons to not want someone to be president. "He's a fascist" is the biggest charge in my mind. > The real problem is in public opinion, i.e. how to convince people on the right to care more about facts, and make better voting decisions. But rejecting Trump wholesale isn't a solution to that problem. That is A real problem, I agree. It's also a separate (but related) problem. The most acute problem is a fascist president (cancer), an uninformed public is more like "smoking" (the environment the cancer needs to form). > Edit: this article, "Nationalism is Rising, Not Fascism" is a great read. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-friedman/nationalism-is.... Thanks! I disagree though; Trump is very very much a fascist, not merely a nationalist (we don't need any more of those either, btw)

CurtMonash 10y ago

There are clear differences between Trump and traditional Fascists. They favored physical violence and military-like discipline. (Mussolini's famous catchphrase was that he'd "Make the trains run on time".) Neither is true of Trump. However, Trump seems like a modernized form. "Verbal" violence online seems more relevant in an era where people don't walk to work in ways that allow them to be physically hassled in the street anyway. H/T David Frum in https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-... for that particular twist.

dave_sullivan 10y ago
Clear difference in the literal sense, yes (Trump will never pull off a mask and turn out to be ah ha! literally Hitler this whole time) He does favor violence and has said so. He also favors military-like discipline (but not for himself). He doesn't wear a military uniform (that would be very weird) but he's made no secret throughout his career of his appreciation for military discipline and loyalty in his subordinates. I agree, Trump's fascism is a modern incarnation.