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Millions of people have branded Trump as a "homophobe", where in reality he's the most pro-gay president of all time at the start of his term. Not just republic

Millions of people have branded Trump as a "homophobe", where in reality he's the most pro-gay president of all time at the start of his term. Not just republican, any US president, period. Obama was against gay marriage before he was (reluctantly) for it. Trump sees no problem with it. Same with xenophobia: a xenophobe doesn't marry an immigrant. Same with misogyny: a misogynist does not appoint a woman to run his campaign. Same with antisemitism: his daughter converted to Judaism to marry a Jew, who also had a hand in running his campaign. Same with racism: he wasn't in any way called "racist" by anybody until he ran for president, and there are numerous photos of him with prominent members of the black community dating back decades. Much of the slander we've seen about the guy is totally fake. It seems HRC had very little of substance other than the pussy grab tape (note that there's no evidence it was anything other than talk), so they just made shit up and told CNN to air it 24x7. And CNN gladly obliged. When the same people that manufactured and spread fake news start lecturing us about the harm of fake news, I just facepalm.

kmicklas 10y ago
This is the kind of satire that will dupe any attempts at AI classification.
- jquery 10y ago
  That's a funny put-down, but inappropriate and stifles real debate. I think there is a lot of evidence Trump is not many of things people claim him to be. And there's evidence for the alternative. It depends on the evidence you find more believable. Here's an excellent article making a compelling argument that Trump is not a racist/homophobe/etc, or at least that calling him such things prematurely undermines the whole argument if he actually does terrible things. Once you call someone racist, it's hard to call them something worse and people tune out. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...
  - willstrafach 10y ago
    The initial post contained defenses which could very easily be broken down by much stronger opposing points for each. I think that is why it was assumed to be a joke.
    - jquery 10y ago
      A much stronger defense could be made as well, but could not be contained in a brief HN comment. I recommend reading the article I linked. Whether or not you agree with its conclusion, it's certainly food for thought.
      - rrdharan 10y ago
        Thank you for posting that article. Well worth the read.
1_2__3 10y ago
You don't really understand how racism, misogyny, etc. works. It's prejudice against a class, and it's extraordinarily common for otherwise small-minded people to befriend or get close to (and defend!) individual members of that class. That does not actually make them less racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. It just makes them a hypocrite. "I can't be racist I have a black friend" is basically what you're saying, writ large.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  But that's the problem with those labels, isn't it? There is no possible way for anyone to prove they aren't a racist/sexist/whatever. And yet it's very easy to accuse people of them. And the accusations are never about what they actually do or say. They are accusations that they have secret beliefs they don't talk about, as if anyone could possibly know that.
JacobJans 10y ago
> When the same people that manufactured and spread fake news start lecturing us about the harm of fake news, I just facepalm. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The reason we're talking about fake news is NOT because of the traditional mainstream media. It's not because of left wing websites such as Alternet or extreme websites such as Breitbart. The reason we're talking about fake news –– and the real problem that absolutely has to be addressed –– has nothing to do with those websites, or with nearly any media organization that has an easily identifiable group of people running it. Sure, those websites might post factually incorrect information on occasion. But that's not why we're talking about fake news. We're talking about fake news because there were –– and are –– websites that repeatedly posted blatantly false "news", during the election, and got massive distribution on social media networks such as Facebook. That is a problem that has nothing to do with your opinion of Donald Trump. It is not clear why you brought him up, except to distract from the issue.
- general_ai 10y ago
  Breitbart is less insidious imo. If you go there, chances are pretty good you know it's mostly horseshit. When it comes to e.g. CNN, way too many people take it at face value. I'm just pointing out that the "legitimate" news sources aren't that much better than Breitbart these days, except a lot of people treat them as though they are.
rrdharan 10y ago
> Same with racism: he wasn't in any way called "racist" by anybody until he ran for president Pretty sure people were calling him a racist when he was running around promoting the Birther hoax - I know I was - or even before that when he called for the death penalty for the falsely accused Central Park 5 in 1989.
jccalhoun 10y ago
Just because you didn't hear people call him racist for years doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am willing to be that people called him racist when the Justice Department filed a housing discrimination lawsuit against his company in 1973. Or when his company settled that suit but in 1978 the government filed another complaint claiming his company didn't meet the terms of the settlement. https://www.salon.com/2011/04/28/donald_trump_discrimination_suit/ https://www.salon.com/2011/04/28/donald_trump_discrimination... This comment also shows another problem that is harder to solve than "fake news," which is the interpretation of facts. What you call just talking, I call bragging about sexual assault and even if it didn't happen is something that I would call someone a misogynist for bragging about in the first place. Other people don't.
- general_ai 10y ago
  Say the company your work for or have shares in discriminates on the basis of race. Does this make _you_ a racist? Is there any evidence that he was in fact the decision maker when it comes to these policies? FWIW, the very same article you linked to (in a despicable fake news rag, BTW) says "Donald testified repeatedly that he had nothing to do with renting apartments". :-)
  - JacobJans 10y ago
    Once again, you are showing why it is so hard to talk about the actual problem. You've managed to distract from the issue by bringing up inflammatory statements about Donald Trump. You go on to accuse Salon.com to be a fake news site, which it is most definitely not, at least not in terms of the problem that lead to the issue of Fake News in the first place. This, in a sense, is Donald Trump's fault. He is so good at controlling the conversation; his bombastic style demands a response; this is the same style you're using in your posts, and it has successfully redirected the discussion. It doesn't matter whether you're right; the topic has now changed.
    - general_ai 10y ago
      How are my statements in any way "inflammatory"? They're as factual as it gets. Is there anything in them that's even up for debate?
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Same with racism: he wasn't in any way called "racist" by anybody until he ran for president, Trump was first sued by the government for racial discrimination something like 40 years ago; he's been being called a racist for a long time before he ran for President. Of course, a lot more people paid attention to him and talked about him at all, and a lot more people paid attention to what was said about him, once he became a Presidential candidate.
- general_ai 10y ago
  Not "Trump", but "one of Trump's companies". There's a difference. Trump would only be really at fault here if he was the author of the discriminatory policies in question, and there's no evidence that he was. Moreover, he testified under oath that he wasn't.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Whether he was at fault or not isn't the issue I was addressing, people were calling him a racist in connection with that, and in connection with many other things in the time between then and his run for President. Obviously, the national attention on people doing so was less before he ran for President, but the idea that he only was accused of racism due to his Presidential run is false.
jartelt 10y ago
Trump has stated several times that he supports traditional marriage and is not comfortable with gay marriage (http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2016/aug/14/sean-patrick-maloney/donald-trump-against-same-sex-marriage/ http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2016/aug/14/se...). These comments show he has a problem with gay marriage. Just because Trump married an immigrant from one country doesn't mean he can't be a Xenophobe. It is pretty clear based on his comments that he intensely dislikes and fears immigrants from Mexico and from Muslim countries. As far as misogyny, he has made several disparaging comments about women. These comments show that he has a lack of respect for women, and that does not change regardless of whether he has hired women or is married to a women. Simply put, you cannot go around speaking about women as if their only value is their body and then claim you are a feminist. I have not seen outright evidence of antisemitism so I can't comment on that. In fact he is too pro-settlement in Isreal for my liking. For racism, there have been documented cases where his businesses have shown discriminatory and racist behavior. He also speaks of (and likely treats) hispanic people very poorly and claimed Obama was from Kenya for several years. That is not fake news. That is just taking examples of Trump's comments and behavior and applying appropriate descriptors to them.
intended 10y ago
This is again business as usual, an issue which has its own space and time. But fake news is not the same and it's a whole different issue which also needs to be resolved.

kmicklas 10y ago

This is the kind of satire that will dupe any attempts at AI classification.

jquery 10y ago
That's a funny put-down, but inappropriate and stifles real debate. I think there is a lot of evidence Trump is not many of things people claim him to be. And there's evidence for the alternative. It depends on the evidence you find more believable. Here's an excellent article making a compelling argument that Trump is not a racist/homophobe/etc, or at least that calling him such things prematurely undermines the whole argument if he actually does terrible things. Once you call someone racist, it's hard to call them something worse and people tune out. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wo...
- willstrafach 10y ago
  The initial post contained defenses which could very easily be broken down by much stronger opposing points for each. I think that is why it was assumed to be a joke.
  - jquery 10y ago
    A much stronger defense could be made as well, but could not be contained in a brief HN comment. I recommend reading the article I linked. Whether or not you agree with its conclusion, it's certainly food for thought.
    - rrdharan 10y ago
      Thank you for posting that article. Well worth the read.

1_2__3 10y ago

You don't really understand how racism, misogyny, etc. works. It's prejudice against a class, and it's extraordinarily common for otherwise small-minded people to befriend or get close to (and defend!) individual members of that class. That does not actually make them less racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. It just makes them a hypocrite. "I can't be racist I have a black friend" is basically what you're saying, writ large.

Houshalter 10y ago
But that's the problem with those labels, isn't it? There is no possible way for anyone to prove they aren't a racist/sexist/whatever. And yet it's very easy to accuse people of them. And the accusations are never about what they actually do or say. They are accusations that they have secret beliefs they don't talk about, as if anyone could possibly know that.

JacobJans 10y ago

> When the same people that manufactured and spread fake news start lecturing us about the harm of fake news, I just facepalm. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The reason we're talking about fake news is NOT because of the traditional mainstream media. It's not because of left wing websites such as Alternet or extreme websites such as Breitbart. The reason we're talking about fake news –– and the real problem that absolutely has to be addressed –– has nothing to do with those websites, or with nearly any media organization that has an easily identifiable group of people running it. Sure, those websites might post factually incorrect information on occasion. But that's not why we're talking about fake news. We're talking about fake news because there were –– and are –– websites that repeatedly posted blatantly false "news", during the election, and got massive distribution on social media networks such as Facebook. That is a problem that has nothing to do with your opinion of Donald Trump. It is not clear why you brought him up, except to distract from the issue.

general_ai 10y ago
Breitbart is less insidious imo. If you go there, chances are pretty good you know it's mostly horseshit. When it comes to e.g. CNN, way too many people take it at face value. I'm just pointing out that the "legitimate" news sources aren't that much better than Breitbart these days, except a lot of people treat them as though they are.

rrdharan 10y ago

> Same with racism: he wasn't in any way called "racist" by anybody until he ran for president Pretty sure people were calling him a racist when he was running around promoting the Birther hoax - I know I was - or even before that when he called for the death penalty for the falsely accused Central Park 5 in 1989.

jccalhoun 10y ago

Just because you didn't hear people call him racist for years doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am willing to be that people called him racist when the Justice Department filed a housing discrimination lawsuit against his company in 1973. Or when his company settled that suit but in 1978 the government filed another complaint claiming his company didn't meet the terms of the settlement. https://www.salon.com/2011/04/28/donald_trump_discrimination_suit/ https://www.salon.com/2011/04/28/donald_trump_discrimination... This comment also shows another problem that is harder to solve than "fake news," which is the interpretation of facts. What you call just talking, I call bragging about sexual assault and even if it didn't happen is something that I would call someone a misogynist for bragging about in the first place. Other people don't.

general_ai 10y ago
Say the company your work for or have shares in discriminates on the basis of race. Does this make _you_ a racist? Is there any evidence that he was in fact the decision maker when it comes to these policies? FWIW, the very same article you linked to (in a despicable fake news rag, BTW) says "Donald testified repeatedly that he had nothing to do with renting apartments". :-)
- JacobJans 10y ago
  Once again, you are showing why it is so hard to talk about the actual problem. You've managed to distract from the issue by bringing up inflammatory statements about Donald Trump. You go on to accuse Salon.com to be a fake news site, which it is most definitely not, at least not in terms of the problem that lead to the issue of Fake News in the first place. This, in a sense, is Donald Trump's fault. He is so good at controlling the conversation; his bombastic style demands a response; this is the same style you're using in your posts, and it has successfully redirected the discussion. It doesn't matter whether you're right; the topic has now changed.
  - general_ai 10y ago
    How are my statements in any way "inflammatory"? They're as factual as it gets. Is there anything in them that's even up for debate?

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Same with racism: he wasn't in any way called "racist" by anybody until he ran for president, Trump was first sued by the government for racial discrimination something like 40 years ago; he's been being called a racist for a long time before he ran for President. Of course, a lot more people paid attention to him and talked about him at all, and a lot more people paid attention to what was said about him, once he became a Presidential candidate.

general_ai 10y ago
Not "Trump", but "one of Trump's companies". There's a difference. Trump would only be really at fault here if he was the author of the discriminatory policies in question, and there's no evidence that he was. Moreover, he testified under oath that he wasn't.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Whether he was at fault or not isn't the issue I was addressing, people were calling him a racist in connection with that, and in connection with many other things in the time between then and his run for President. Obviously, the national attention on people doing so was less before he ran for President, but the idea that he only was accused of racism due to his Presidential run is false.

jartelt 10y ago

Trump has stated several times that he supports traditional marriage and is not comfortable with gay marriage (http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2016/aug/14/sean-patrick-maloney/donald-trump-against-same-sex-marriage/ http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2016/aug/14/se...). These comments show he has a problem with gay marriage. Just because Trump married an immigrant from one country doesn't mean he can't be a Xenophobe. It is pretty clear based on his comments that he intensely dislikes and fears immigrants from Mexico and from Muslim countries. As far as misogyny, he has made several disparaging comments about women. These comments show that he has a lack of respect for women, and that does not change regardless of whether he has hired women or is married to a women. Simply put, you cannot go around speaking about women as if their only value is their body and then claim you are a feminist. I have not seen outright evidence of antisemitism so I can't comment on that. In fact he is too pro-settlement in Isreal for my liking. For racism, there have been documented cases where his businesses have shown discriminatory and racist behavior. He also speaks of (and likely treats) hispanic people very poorly and claimed Obama was from Kenya for several years. That is not fake news. That is just taking examples of Trump's comments and behavior and applying appropriate descriptors to them.

intended 10y ago

This is again business as usual, an issue which has its own space and time. But fake news is not the same and it's a whole different issue which also needs to be resolved.