4 ms·

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help. First, don't respond to HR with a complex

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help. First, don't respond to HR with a complex set of legal questions. They wont know the answer and will push back -- corporate attorneys will charge astronomical amounts and these questions could even get the board involved -- which the CEO usually doesn't want to do. My suggestions: 1) The strike: Print the document, strike out what you don't want. Scan it, return it to the HR dept. with, "Hey cool signed!". Only do this if you are pretty senior. 2) The re-write: Take the document rewrite it, with the statements you don't like removed, then return it to HR with, "Hey cool signed!" 3) The 'it is coming!' (for junior guys): Take the email and delete it. Say you never got it. They will resend it, take it and place it into your spam folder, two weeks later say you never got it. Then reply back with your w9 two weeks later. Then if they complain reply with a w9 3 weeks later. Continue until you have clout then do 1 or 2.

logfromblammo 10y ago
Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first. But in my experience, documents like these don't even have a signature line for anyone other than you. So long as you are just unilaterally agreeing with yourself, you can agree to anything you like. You can write in that you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month! I wonder why companies even delude themselves into thinking such things are enforceable without a real, negotiated, two-party contract, with valuable consideration given by both sides. It's essentially just signing the document that says, "I have read the corporate handbook, including the company policy on X." If you violate the policy on X, their remedy is to dock your pay or fire you from the company. They can't lawfully enforce anything in court. (Which isn't to say that they won't ever win. The courts tend to favor those willing to pay the most to win.)
- ransom1538 10y ago
  "Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first." NEVER EVER seen this. Hell. I have never seen two signatures on anything in 12 years. AND I always add "you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month!" -- obviously. The point is no one checks - HR just wants to thumbs up.
- mikeash 10y ago
  They're still pretty enforceable. Not legally enforceable, but most people don't know their rights and aren't brave enough to test them, so waving some documents in front of them while saying "you agreed to this!" is enough to get compliance.
ryandrake 10y ago
I've actually tried that cute "Strike out clauses from your employment agreement you don't like and sign THAT document" tactic with several past employers, and each of them pulled me aside my first or second day of work and gave me a stern and clear "Sign it unmodified or GTFO" talk. In my experience nothing in an employment contract is in any way negotiable. I don't even bother anymore--it's futile.
- blister 10y ago
  Either they're bluffing completely or you're extremely junior. We often spend $10k-$30k on each new hire. If you make it through that pipeline and they try to strong-arm you on the first day... they're going to have a rough time.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    I don't think they were bluffing but I was not going to roll the dice and find out. Not a junior level guy either. I think these places that actually let you negotiate your employment contract must be relatively few, very small companies, with one HR person and lawyer and a lot less formality. EDIT: Also, to be cynical: $30k is nothing for many companies, and likely less than the benefit of having IP rights to everything an employee makes in their spare time.
    - ransom1538 10y ago
      No, for senior people I almost always expect a strange contract negotiation. Juniors just sign.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    They might be bluffing. But considering you've just left your old job, most people are not willing to take that chance.
    - danielweber 10y ago
      This is why everyone should demand to see the IP agreement during negotiation.

logfromblammo 10y ago

Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first. But in my experience, documents like these don't even have a signature line for anyone other than you. So long as you are just unilaterally agreeing with yourself, you can agree to anything you like. You can write in that you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month! I wonder why companies even delude themselves into thinking such things are enforceable without a real, negotiated, two-party contract, with valuable consideration given by both sides. It's essentially just signing the document that says, "I have read the corporate handbook, including the company policy on X." If you violate the policy on X, their remedy is to dock your pay or fire you from the company. They can't lawfully enforce anything in court. (Which isn't to say that they won't ever win. The courts tend to favor those willing to pay the most to win.)

ransom1538 10y ago
"Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first." NEVER EVER seen this. Hell. I have never seen two signatures on anything in 12 years. AND I always add "you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month!" -- obviously. The point is no one checks - HR just wants to thumbs up.
mikeash 10y ago
They're still pretty enforceable. Not legally enforceable, but most people don't know their rights and aren't brave enough to test them, so waving some documents in front of them while saying "you agreed to this!" is enough to get compliance.

ryandrake 10y ago

I've actually tried that cute "Strike out clauses from your employment agreement you don't like and sign THAT document" tactic with several past employers, and each of them pulled me aside my first or second day of work and gave me a stern and clear "Sign it unmodified or GTFO" talk. In my experience nothing in an employment contract is in any way negotiable. I don't even bother anymore--it's futile.

blister 10y ago
Either they're bluffing completely or you're extremely junior. We often spend $10k-$30k on each new hire. If you make it through that pipeline and they try to strong-arm you on the first day... they're going to have a rough time.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  I don't think they were bluffing but I was not going to roll the dice and find out. Not a junior level guy either. I think these places that actually let you negotiate your employment contract must be relatively few, very small companies, with one HR person and lawyer and a lot less formality. EDIT: Also, to be cynical: $30k is nothing for many companies, and likely less than the benefit of having IP rights to everything an employee makes in their spare time.
  - ransom1538 10y ago
    No, for senior people I almost always expect a strange contract negotiation. Juniors just sign.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  They might be bluffing. But considering you've just left your old job, most people are not willing to take that chance.
  - danielweber 10y ago
    This is why everyone should demand to see the IP agreement during negotiation.