7 ms·

He isn't saying that. He is saying we shouldn't continue to support tape cassettes because the creator of the Godfather didn't want to update it to DVD.

falcolas 10y ago
Stretching the metaphor a bit; but what if the creator is dead? Or can't afford to update it? Does it make the Godfather worthless because of its medium? The Mona Lisa is deteriorating. Should we also stop efforts to preserve it, because there's so many other paintings out there?
- interpol_p 10y ago
  As long as there are people willing to preserve it, then we will preserve it. Few people would ever "stop" efforts to preserve something, it's just going to stop being preserved when there is no one around who cares about it anymore. There are many millions of paintings that have been lost to time, and there will be many more. Just because something isn't preserved doesn't mean it is worthless. The transience of human creativity is part of what makes it so beautiful. If the Godfather was to be removed from existence this instant it would still have value because it has already made a mark on the world and the memories of the people in the world. And will indirectly influence generations to come. Value accrues in the humans who experience the work, not in the work itself.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > As long as there are people willing to preserve it, then we will preserve it. As long as there are people willing to preserve it, there are still laws (e.g. DCMA) that prohibit people from doing it.
    - parasubvert 10y ago
      Those laws exist to protect the rights of the creator for a period of time; if they want a thing to pass into history, without openly publishing the source, that's their prerogative. Even before copyright expiration, anyone can clean-room reimplement a thing in open source if they wanted to, and not be violating copyright. This has been common in OSS. (Samba for example)
      - hedora 10y ago
        The period is effectively infinite now, since congress keeps retroactively extending it. Also, the SMB protocol does not contain any copyrightable material, like music, sprites, icons, game assets, etc. Copyright law prevents you from faithfully cloning (pixel for pixel) most GUIs and games (so most phone apps)
        parasubvert 10y ago
        The Sonny Bono act was passed 19 years ago. 100 years of protection isn't infinite. It also requires an entity to WANT to enforce that copyright. if they exist, then you really don't have a right to pixel clone something - they can keep it buried. There are plenty of game variants created that capture the feel of prior games without being IP violations
jclardy 10y ago
I think the difference is that film has archival formats to keep them around. If you have a film reel you can rescan it for a new format, whether it be VHS, Betamax, DVD, Bluray, HD-DVD or whatever is next. For software we have the source code, but given Apple's iOS ecosystem you are likely tied into that platform (Especially for early software when there was little cross platform tooling.) The problem with the App Store is that neither users nor developers have a good method for keeping their apps around (other than releasing a binary for jailbroken devices.) You can't just create a DMG and host it on S3 to allow any old iOS device to install because the platform is locked down. The issue is that a lot of the history of mobile gaming is going to be lost (And some already has been with the purging of non-updated apps already happening) because the App Store is the arbiter for users obtaining software. The "simple" solution is for apple to allow users to install IPA files outside of the App Store, like Android can install APK files. Developers can build their app in an old version of Xcode and put it up for install on their own terms.
- parasubvert 10y ago
  Apple does allow developer users to install IPA files outside of the App Store. I can easily take an app off Github, build it with Xcode, and install it on my iPhone, for example. There are even scripts to do this similar to a "configure; make; make install", eg: https://github.com/phonegap/ios-deploy https://github.com/phonegap/ios-deploy This doesn't require the $99 it used to either, anyone can do it, though it does require you to get a free signed developer certificate from Apple which signs the app (you'll also need to tell your device to trust your cert). You can even distribute an IPA file and install it via iTunes and not the App Store, but it needs to be signed by a trusted authority (your company; your dev cert; or most likely Apple, as long as it is a non-revoked cert).
  - problems 10y ago
    Seriously? That's awesome, I'm really glad Apple's taken that step in the right direction. Question though, has it had a large impact on popularity of pirated apps if you no longer have to jailbreak to use them?
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
This is a poor analogy because the customer can turn a Godfather tape into a DVD at home. Or a DVD into a mp4. Or a mp4 into whatever the future holds and be able to watch it on newer equipment. If there's DRM its typically trivially broken or worked around via hdmi converters or even a basic analog output. As a customer of a 32-bit app, I have no such power. I can't convert it to 64-bit. That's the problem.
- mulletbum 10y ago
  If you have a 32-bit app that you are not willing to strap into 64-bit, then the medium in which it can be used on with stay in the past. So if I don't update my iPhone, I can continue to use your app and will have to begin finding ways to preserve your app for myself and people like me who enjoy it.

falcolas 10y ago

Stretching the metaphor a bit; but what if the creator is dead? Or can't afford to update it? Does it make the Godfather worthless because of its medium? The Mona Lisa is deteriorating. Should we also stop efforts to preserve it, because there's so many other paintings out there?

interpol_p 10y ago
As long as there are people willing to preserve it, then we will preserve it. Few people would ever "stop" efforts to preserve something, it's just going to stop being preserved when there is no one around who cares about it anymore. There are many millions of paintings that have been lost to time, and there will be many more. Just because something isn't preserved doesn't mean it is worthless. The transience of human creativity is part of what makes it so beautiful. If the Godfather was to be removed from existence this instant it would still have value because it has already made a mark on the world and the memories of the people in the world. And will indirectly influence generations to come. Value accrues in the humans who experience the work, not in the work itself.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > As long as there are people willing to preserve it, then we will preserve it. As long as there are people willing to preserve it, there are still laws (e.g. DCMA) that prohibit people from doing it.
  - parasubvert 10y ago
    Those laws exist to protect the rights of the creator for a period of time; if they want a thing to pass into history, without openly publishing the source, that's their prerogative. Even before copyright expiration, anyone can clean-room reimplement a thing in open source if they wanted to, and not be violating copyright. This has been common in OSS. (Samba for example)
    - hedora 10y ago
      The period is effectively infinite now, since congress keeps retroactively extending it. Also, the SMB protocol does not contain any copyrightable material, like music, sprites, icons, game assets, etc. Copyright law prevents you from faithfully cloning (pixel for pixel) most GUIs and games (so most phone apps)
      - parasubvert 10y ago
        The Sonny Bono act was passed 19 years ago. 100 years of protection isn't infinite. It also requires an entity to WANT to enforce that copyright. if they exist, then you really don't have a right to pixel clone something - they can keep it buried. There are plenty of game variants created that capture the feel of prior games without being IP violations

jclardy 10y ago

I think the difference is that film has archival formats to keep them around. If you have a film reel you can rescan it for a new format, whether it be VHS, Betamax, DVD, Bluray, HD-DVD or whatever is next. For software we have the source code, but given Apple's iOS ecosystem you are likely tied into that platform (Especially for early software when there was little cross platform tooling.) The problem with the App Store is that neither users nor developers have a good method for keeping their apps around (other than releasing a binary for jailbroken devices.) You can't just create a DMG and host it on S3 to allow any old iOS device to install because the platform is locked down. The issue is that a lot of the history of mobile gaming is going to be lost (And some already has been with the purging of non-updated apps already happening) because the App Store is the arbiter for users obtaining software. The "simple" solution is for apple to allow users to install IPA files outside of the App Store, like Android can install APK files. Developers can build their app in an old version of Xcode and put it up for install on their own terms.

parasubvert 10y ago
Apple does allow developer users to install IPA files outside of the App Store. I can easily take an app off Github, build it with Xcode, and install it on my iPhone, for example. There are even scripts to do this similar to a "configure; make; make install", eg: https://github.com/phonegap/ios-deploy https://github.com/phonegap/ios-deploy This doesn't require the $99 it used to either, anyone can do it, though it does require you to get a free signed developer certificate from Apple which signs the app (you'll also need to tell your device to trust your cert). You can even distribute an IPA file and install it via iTunes and not the App Store, but it needs to be signed by a trusted authority (your company; your dev cert; or most likely Apple, as long as it is a non-revoked cert).
- problems 10y ago
  Seriously? That's awesome, I'm really glad Apple's taken that step in the right direction. Question though, has it had a large impact on popularity of pirated apps if you no longer have to jailbreak to use them?

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

This is a poor analogy because the customer can turn a Godfather tape into a DVD at home. Or a DVD into a mp4. Or a mp4 into whatever the future holds and be able to watch it on newer equipment. If there's DRM its typically trivially broken or worked around via hdmi converters or even a basic analog output. As a customer of a 32-bit app, I have no such power. I can't convert it to 64-bit. That's the problem.

mulletbum 10y ago
If you have a 32-bit app that you are not willing to strap into 64-bit, then the medium in which it can be used on with stay in the past. So if I don't update my iPhone, I can continue to use your app and will have to begin finding ways to preserve your app for myself and people like me who enjoy it.