5 ms·

Said software can still be run using emulators, can it not? There is lots of (well, some) potentially useful software out there that only runs on machines no l

by Athas 10y ago

Said software can still be run using emulators, can it not? There is lots of (well, some) potentially useful software out there that only runs on machines no longer in production. A good solution is also to make source code freely available, then the best programs will not die.

saurik 10y ago
I happen to know someone who had managed to build an emulator for iOS, but it could only emulate one particular old device (the key thing to understand is that we had a bootrom exploit that let us dump a lot of the code and encryption keys from these older devices). The issue with Apple goes well beyond distribution of apps: they also control the hardware, and they use that control to shroud the software; and unlike with a typical game console, there is a ton of software running on the device as part of a network of dependencies. But like, we can go further: as it stands, without exploits for security vulnerabilities for these devices, it isn't even possible to get a copy of the apps to run in an emulator, due to the as-yet uncracked DRM used by Apple (which may or may not use hardware AES keys; I still haven't figured this out). So even if you had an iPhone emulator (and you don't, and might not for a very long time, if ever), you also need to obtain an unencrypted copy of Trainyard (the app in the banner image of this article) to run on it, as if they really are using hardware AES keys for that, your emulator is going to be missing those. Essentially, I would argue that we are moving into a post-emulator reality. It was really easy to write a Nintendo emulator, and it was sort of OK to write a Nintendo 64 emulator. The existence of Wii and PS3 emulators is only due to bugs in security of systems, often the kind that are caused by people too often using unsafe languages like C. Imagine a world where people with intent to lock things down and the experience to know how to do it well are also coding in secure-by-default languages: you get to a point where even a scanning tunneling microscope isn't enough to get you access to the code either from the console or from the game.
- userbinator 10y ago
  Imagine a world where people with intent to lock things down and the experience to know how to do it well are also coding in secure-by-default languages: you get to a point where even a scanning tunneling microscope isn't enough to get you access to the code either from the console or from the game. This is why I've always found these "safe" languages and the general security trend rather worrisome: they can effectively secure our devices against attackers, but also against their owners. Personally I think these issues need to be solved before advocating for these more secure systems, as otherwise we'll just be locking ourselves out.
- majewsky 10y ago
  So... we have to wait for quantum computers to break the AES keys? :)
  - foobiekr 10y ago
    Quantum computers are only marginally faster against symmetric key encryption - AES128 requires 2^64 quantum operations.
- sjtgraham 10y ago
  I've been looking at the FairPlay DRM this week. I followed the path from the memory pager, through IOTextCrypter et al, through to fairplayd via com.apple.unfreed IPC. Static analysis of that binary looks impracticable (a lot of effort appears to have been made to ensure this), but have you considered dynamic analysis using Unicorn?
- quotemstr 10y ago
  > moving into a post-emulator reality Also known as the death of the general purpose computer. Free software advocates have been warning about this slow-rolling catastrophe for ages. http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

by Athas 10y ago

saurik 10y ago

I happen to know someone who had managed to build an emulator for iOS, but it could only emulate one particular old device (the key thing to understand is that we had a bootrom exploit that let us dump a lot of the code and encryption keys from these older devices). The issue with Apple goes well beyond distribution of apps: they also control the hardware, and they use that control to shroud the software; and unlike with a typical game console, there is a ton of software running on the device as part of a network of dependencies. But like, we can go further: as it stands, without exploits for security vulnerabilities for these devices, it isn't even possible to get a copy of the apps to run in an emulator, due to the as-yet uncracked DRM used by Apple (which may or may not use hardware AES keys; I still haven't figured this out). So even if you had an iPhone emulator (and you don't, and might not for a very long time, if ever), you also need to obtain an unencrypted copy of Trainyard (the app in the banner image of this article) to run on it, as if they really are using hardware AES keys for that, your emulator is going to be missing those. Essentially, I would argue that we are moving into a post-emulator reality. It was really easy to write a Nintendo emulator, and it was sort of OK to write a Nintendo 64 emulator. The existence of Wii and PS3 emulators is only due to bugs in security of systems, often the kind that are caused by people too often using unsafe languages like C. Imagine a world where people with intent to lock things down and the experience to know how to do it well are also coding in secure-by-default languages: you get to a point where even a scanning tunneling microscope isn't enough to get you access to the code either from the console or from the game.

userbinator 10y ago
Imagine a world where people with intent to lock things down and the experience to know how to do it well are also coding in secure-by-default languages: you get to a point where even a scanning tunneling microscope isn't enough to get you access to the code either from the console or from the game. This is why I've always found these "safe" languages and the general security trend rather worrisome: they can effectively secure our devices against attackers, but also against their owners. Personally I think these issues need to be solved before advocating for these more secure systems, as otherwise we'll just be locking ourselves out.
majewsky 10y ago
So... we have to wait for quantum computers to break the AES keys? :)
- foobiekr 10y ago
  Quantum computers are only marginally faster against symmetric key encryption - AES128 requires 2^64 quantum operations.
sjtgraham 10y ago
I've been looking at the FairPlay DRM this week. I followed the path from the memory pager, through IOTextCrypter et al, through to fairplayd via com.apple.unfreed IPC. Static analysis of that binary looks impracticable (a lot of effort appears to have been made to ensure this), but have you considered dynamic analysis using Unicorn?
quotemstr 10y ago
> moving into a post-emulator reality Also known as the death of the general purpose computer. Free software advocates have been warning about this slow-rolling catastrophe for ages. http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html