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I have to wonder how it impacted human evolution. I mean, evolutionary psychology (for what little good the field is) usually dwells on "savannah ancestors" an

by Pxtl 10y ago

I have to wonder how it impacted human evolution. I mean, evolutionary psychology (for what little good the field is) usually dwells on "savannah ancestors" and whatnot, but centuries of being perpetually drunk is going to have an impact too. Not just in terms of tolerance, but in terms of mental conditions. If the ground-state of the human mind is tipsy, then is sobriety functionally an abnormal state we're maladapted for?

Houshalter 10y ago
It could go the other way around too. If these people consumed so much alcohol everyday since childhood, they probably built up a decent tolerance to its effects.
- Balgair 10y ago
  Yes, but your liver and heart do not. The early death rates for males in Russia are attributed to alcohol abuse.
wtbob 10y ago
> If the ground-state of the human mind is tipsy, then is sobriety functionally an abnormal state we're maladapted for? I vaguely recall reading that the ancient Persians would make decisions twice: once sober, and once drunk. If their decisions were the same, then they knew that they'd decided correctly. Of course, they ended up being conquered by a bunch of teetotallers … No reference, I'm afraid. It could be very well be total bunk.
- martinpw 10y ago
  Apparently it is a quote from Herodutus, so the reference dates back a long way but that does not necessarily mean it is true: http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/persian-strategy-deliberating-while.html http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/persian-str...
- FabHK 10y ago
  Pity today's Iran is rather more strict about it. In Teheran, can only get alcohol legally in the Armenian community centre, AFAIK: red wine, white wine, or vodka.
- pm90 10y ago
  To be fair, they held on their own for centuries of constant warfare with Greco-Roman civilization, which at certain times consisted of the largest, most powerful political entities.
flukus 10y ago
I think any alcohol dependence would be much more recent than that, I doubt asian glow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction) would be a thing of we were getting drunk on the Savannah.
- hmsln 10y ago
  Actually, some monkeys develop alcohol dependence in the wild (they get their alcohol from ripe fermenting fruits). Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/chimpanzees-found-routinely-drinking-alcohol-in-wild-10309101.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/chimpanzees-... Here's also an extract from a BBC Nature documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk Apparently, the monkeys are divided among heavy drinkers, occasional drinkers or teetootalers in proportions that are roughly equal to those among human beings.
- marchenko 10y ago
  The "Asian flush" response is the result of a mutation that is believed to have arisen in Asia, and is relatively uncommon in Europe and Africa. So the ancestral (savannah) state may have been tipsy indeed. The derived allele appears to have been positively selected in Asia, possibly because it is protective against alcohol dependency, but the selective pressure hasn't been conclusively established.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  I guess I was vague - I meant to contrast the "savannah ancestors" fixation of evopsych with considering evolution of humans in the modern era. While normally evolutionary psychology worries about the tens of thousands of years of prehistoric man, the thousands-ish years of drunken modern man would still definitely have an impact.
- Balgair 10y ago
  Human evolution has been hand in hand with ethanol, likely mammalian evolution. But those incidents of alcohol abuse only would occur when fruit was fermenting on the vine/tree as this youtube video humorously demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tlF3kGbT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tlF3kGbT4 Also, many 'native' peoples in the Americas, Australia, and Oceania have large problems with alcohol abuse. Large areas of Queensland forbid any ethanol, even for medicinal use, because of these social problems.
FabHK 10y ago
Remember, though, to have a "classical" evolutionary impact (i.e. change in gene pool composition), you'd have to have different survival or more precisely procreation rates for different gene endowments. But I like your way of thinking. As they say, reality is a terminal condition caused by a lack of alcohol, or something something.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  For example, being obsessively careful would help you survive when drunk, as then you'd only be moderately careful.... whereas a normal person goes from moderately careful to careless when drunk. That's what I mean by "being drunk all the time having an evolutionary impact" - I wonder if this could explain being obsessive or overcautious. That is, mild forms of OCD existing as an adaptation to an alcohol-rich environment.

by Pxtl 10y ago

Houshalter 10y ago

It could go the other way around too. If these people consumed so much alcohol everyday since childhood, they probably built up a decent tolerance to its effects.

Balgair 10y ago
Yes, but your liver and heart do not. The early death rates for males in Russia are attributed to alcohol abuse.

wtbob 10y ago

> If the ground-state of the human mind is tipsy, then is sobriety functionally an abnormal state we're maladapted for? I vaguely recall reading that the ancient Persians would make decisions twice: once sober, and once drunk. If their decisions were the same, then they knew that they'd decided correctly. Of course, they ended up being conquered by a bunch of teetotallers … No reference, I'm afraid. It could be very well be total bunk.

martinpw 10y ago
Apparently it is a quote from Herodutus, so the reference dates back a long way but that does not necessarily mean it is true: http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/persian-strategy-deliberating-while.html http://skepticalphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/09/persian-str...
FabHK 10y ago
Pity today's Iran is rather more strict about it. In Teheran, can only get alcohol legally in the Armenian community centre, AFAIK: red wine, white wine, or vodka.
pm90 10y ago
To be fair, they held on their own for centuries of constant warfare with Greco-Roman civilization, which at certain times consisted of the largest, most powerful political entities.

flukus 10y ago

I think any alcohol dependence would be much more recent than that, I doubt asian glow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction) would be a thing of we were getting drunk on the Savannah.

hmsln 10y ago
Actually, some monkeys develop alcohol dependence in the wild (they get their alcohol from ripe fermenting fruits). Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/chimpanzees-found-routinely-drinking-alcohol-in-wild-10309101.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/chimpanzees-... Here's also an extract from a BBC Nature documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk Apparently, the monkeys are divided among heavy drinkers, occasional drinkers or teetootalers in proportions that are roughly equal to those among human beings.
marchenko 10y ago
The "Asian flush" response is the result of a mutation that is believed to have arisen in Asia, and is relatively uncommon in Europe and Africa. So the ancestral (savannah) state may have been tipsy indeed. The derived allele appears to have been positively selected in Asia, possibly because it is protective against alcohol dependency, but the selective pressure hasn't been conclusively established.
Pxtl 10y ago
I guess I was vague - I meant to contrast the "savannah ancestors" fixation of evopsych with considering evolution of humans in the modern era. While normally evolutionary psychology worries about the tens of thousands of years of prehistoric man, the thousands-ish years of drunken modern man would still definitely have an impact.
Balgair 10y ago
Human evolution has been hand in hand with ethanol, likely mammalian evolution. But those incidents of alcohol abuse only would occur when fruit was fermenting on the vine/tree as this youtube video humorously demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tlF3kGbT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50tlF3kGbT4 Also, many 'native' peoples in the Americas, Australia, and Oceania have large problems with alcohol abuse. Large areas of Queensland forbid any ethanol, even for medicinal use, because of these social problems.

FabHK 10y ago

Remember, though, to have a "classical" evolutionary impact (i.e. change in gene pool composition), you'd have to have different survival or more precisely procreation rates for different gene endowments. But I like your way of thinking. As they say, reality is a terminal condition caused by a lack of alcohol, or something something.

Pxtl 10y ago
For example, being obsessively careful would help you survive when drunk, as then you'd only be moderately careful.... whereas a normal person goes from moderately careful to careless when drunk. That's what I mean by "being drunk all the time having an evolutionary impact" - I wonder if this could explain being obsessive or overcautious. That is, mild forms of OCD existing as an adaptation to an alcohol-rich environment.