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Sure much better, this California push is a subsidy for battery storage. Not a economical choice. Pumped storage has even the advantage of that it can be imple

Sure much better, this California push is a subsidy for battery storage. Not a economical choice. Pumped storage has even the advantage of that it can be implemented during construction of hydroelectric power plants, you just need the interconnected grid, but you will need the grid either way with renewables. In other words: you don't need to build a reservoir. You just need to pump back of the exit of a already existing hydroelectric plant and build the power line to connect both plants.

deleted 10y ago
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epistasis 10y ago
This is flat out wrong, the cost per MWh for stored electricity compares favorably to the natural gas peaker plants that it's replacing, at least when they're built on a usual schedule. I would also like to see evidence for th claim about reusing existing hydroelectric plants, because that does not seem to be consistent with anything I've seen before. It would be very welcome news to me!
- fcanesin 10y ago
  Every hydroelectric is a specific project and the waterfall size and volume usually determines the type of turbine (pelton, francis and kaplan are the most popular from high to low) .. the denomination of pumped storage systems is applied when a reversible turbine is used, so no standard hydroelectric with a reservoir will be called pumped system, those are called impoundment. If you abuse nomenclature could be a open-loop pumped system. Discussion with example here: http://e360.yale.edu/features/for_storing_electricity_utilities_are_turning_to_pumped_hydro http://e360.yale.edu/features/for_storing_electricity_utilit... Economic comments here: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/galvan-lopez2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/galvan-lopez2/
- Animats 10y ago
  Some of the reservoirs of the California Water Project are used for pumped storage. Water is pumped uphill at night, and some of it is let back down in the afternoon. This would never pay for the reservoir and plant, but it covers the power bill.
- fcanesin 10y ago
  To complete here are two examples in US of existing hydroelectric that had pumped systems added in latter date (decades after operation start) becoming the so-called open-loop system I referred: [1]Richard B. Russell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Russell_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Russell_Dam [2]Grand Coulee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam So before saying something is "flat out wrong" be sure you are not ignorant on the subject.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

epistasis 10y ago

This is flat out wrong, the cost per MWh for stored electricity compares favorably to the natural gas peaker plants that it's replacing, at least when they're built on a usual schedule. I would also like to see evidence for th claim about reusing existing hydroelectric plants, because that does not seem to be consistent with anything I've seen before. It would be very welcome news to me!

fcanesin 10y ago
Every hydroelectric is a specific project and the waterfall size and volume usually determines the type of turbine (pelton, francis and kaplan are the most popular from high to low) .. the denomination of pumped storage systems is applied when a reversible turbine is used, so no standard hydroelectric with a reservoir will be called pumped system, those are called impoundment. If you abuse nomenclature could be a open-loop pumped system. Discussion with example here: http://e360.yale.edu/features/for_storing_electricity_utilities_are_turning_to_pumped_hydro http://e360.yale.edu/features/for_storing_electricity_utilit... Economic comments here: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/galvan-lopez2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/galvan-lopez2/
Animats 10y ago
Some of the reservoirs of the California Water Project are used for pumped storage. Water is pumped uphill at night, and some of it is let back down in the afternoon. This would never pay for the reservoir and plant, but it covers the power bill.
fcanesin 10y ago
To complete here are two examples in US of existing hydroelectric that had pumped systems added in latter date (decades after operation start) becoming the so-called open-loop system I referred: [1]Richard B. Russell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Russell_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Russell_Dam [2]Grand Coulee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam So before saying something is "flat out wrong" be sure you are not ignorant on the subject.