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The thing that is needed most is a laboratory of ideas for what will replace the neoliberal order. A corporate democracy that increases inequality and only pand

The thing that is needed most is a laboratory of ideas for what will replace the neoliberal order. A corporate democracy that increases inequality and only panders to justice by gestures towards identity politics is seemingly over. What we're faced with now is either devolving into an Ethnic Nationalist state on par with Russia, or something entirely new that has yet to be described. What needs to be recaptured is a vision of the future based on science, health, the arts, and shared prosperity. And it has to be described in actionable political terms. We can do this. We have the majority of scientists, engineers, philosophers, and artists behind us. But we have to move quickly because returning to the kind of managed democracy we had before is no longer possible.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
> What needs to be recaptured is a vision of the future based on science, health, the arts, and shared prosperity. And it has to be described in actionable political terms. We need a Star Trek: TNG for the (pun not intended) next generation... If someone is willing to start a movement that wants to create United Fedration of Planets, count me in.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Right I agree. The command and control framework of the Star Trek universe will be unpalatable to American biases, so it would have to be something more networked along the lines of the federalism we already have. But given our technology, building a more directly democratic system of feedback should be possible. Trump's success is using Twitter to transform himself into a disruptive avatar of his supporters. The next generation of politicians has to do the same, but with democratic impulses as opposed to authoritarian ones. We also, as much as possible, must try evenly distribute the future. For example, if we want to defeat climate change, we have to rally manufacturing and technological solutions in places like the rural Midwest. In even the reddest of states, their are bastions of support for future-oriented ideas, and we should begin networking these places togehther as forward bases of operation.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I wasn't really even thinking about "command and control framework". More about the culture of Star Trek universe - "the future based on science, health, the arts, and shared prosperity", where people respect science, competence, teamwork and humanitarian values. One thing I always loved about Star Trek worldview is that characters in the show always believe people they meet are competent at what they do, instead of assuming that they're working with morons. Ditto for the bureaucracy of the UFP - it's assumed competent until proven otherwise; not like in our world, where the government is always assumed idiotic by default.
    - alphonsegaston 10y ago
      Right, but framing is desperately important in this context. If you say we want to build a Star Trek future, in no short order you'll have people jumping all over you about how it's an authoritarian communist fantasy. I've seen this exact thing happen on this forum. If instead, its framed as expanding the idea of American Federalism, diverse entities working towards vision of the future rooted in these ideals, I think it will be more successful.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        I understand now. A good point, I agree.
- noonespecial 10y ago
  We just need 2 things to make it happen. The replicator (far closer than most people think) and a way to deal with the people who will inevitably decide that replicators can only be used with their permission (so, so far away).
- 6d6b73 10y ago
  +1 If someone is willing to start informal group that would work on making something like that a reality - count me in. :)
eeZah7Ux 10y ago
> corporate democracy that increases inequality "democracy" makes the sentence an oxymoron.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  You're right. Corporate republicanism would have probably been more accurate.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    "Corporate oligarchy" would be a less partisan way to say this.
    - kmicklas 10y ago
      I think they mean replubican in the representative democracy sense, not the GOP sense.
      - alphonsegaston 10y ago
        Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.
evunveot 10y ago
There are quite a few energetic people out there devoted to worker cooperatives and generally developing strategies for the democratization of wealth/capital. The nice part is it doesn't require electoral politicking or lawmaking, just a voluntary change in how people interact and associate economically. http://democracycollaborative.org/ http://democracycollaborative.org/ http://geo.coop http://geo.coop http://fair.coop http://fair.coop
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Alternative economic arrangements will not be able to survive under an authoritarian kleptocracy. They'll just be moved out of the way through some form of corruption. Even under the neoliberal order, they were only barely tolerated. Think about what happened with Tessa and direct sales in many states as the mildest precursor to this kind of future. Whether we like it or not, the country is shifting back towards the 19th century notions of "political economy." These existed in a diminished form under neoliberalism, but were largely swept beside by the triumphalist end of history that reigned. Appeals to fascism and authoritarian communism have already entered the Overton window, so the only option now is to outcompete those explicit political-economic fusions with something new.
sixdimensional 10y ago
Kind of sounds like the hypothetical "technocracy" [1]. I'd be wary of too much science at the same time - needs some balance. What stirs the beating hearts of people on HN likely does not do so for everyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  I know this is a risk, but I think science and tech have to be at the center because of their association with forward looking narratives. Part of the reframing has to be positioning science and tech as being at the service of constituencies that have been left behind in the past order. Trump has been able to conflate them with elitism because they have thrown their political weight behind a neoliberal political order. Since that's on the its way out, the door is open to align them with a new, more democratic political narrative.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

> What needs to be recaptured is a vision of the future based on science, health, the arts, and shared prosperity. And it has to be described in actionable political terms. We need a Star Trek: TNG for the (pun not intended) next generation... If someone is willing to start a movement that wants to create United Fedration of Planets, count me in.

alphonsegaston 10y ago
Right I agree. The command and control framework of the Star Trek universe will be unpalatable to American biases, so it would have to be something more networked along the lines of the federalism we already have. But given our technology, building a more directly democratic system of feedback should be possible. Trump's success is using Twitter to transform himself into a disruptive avatar of his supporters. The next generation of politicians has to do the same, but with democratic impulses as opposed to authoritarian ones. We also, as much as possible, must try evenly distribute the future. For example, if we want to defeat climate change, we have to rally manufacturing and technological solutions in places like the rural Midwest. In even the reddest of states, their are bastions of support for future-oriented ideas, and we should begin networking these places togehther as forward bases of operation.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I wasn't really even thinking about "command and control framework". More about the culture of Star Trek universe - "the future based on science, health, the arts, and shared prosperity", where people respect science, competence, teamwork and humanitarian values. One thing I always loved about Star Trek worldview is that characters in the show always believe people they meet are competent at what they do, instead of assuming that they're working with morons. Ditto for the bureaucracy of the UFP - it's assumed competent until proven otherwise; not like in our world, where the government is always assumed idiotic by default.
  - alphonsegaston 10y ago
    Right, but framing is desperately important in this context. If you say we want to build a Star Trek future, in no short order you'll have people jumping all over you about how it's an authoritarian communist fantasy. I've seen this exact thing happen on this forum. If instead, its framed as expanding the idea of American Federalism, diverse entities working towards vision of the future rooted in these ideals, I think it will be more successful.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I understand now. A good point, I agree.
noonespecial 10y ago
We just need 2 things to make it happen. The replicator (far closer than most people think) and a way to deal with the people who will inevitably decide that replicators can only be used with their permission (so, so far away).
6d6b73 10y ago
+1 If someone is willing to start informal group that would work on making something like that a reality - count me in. :)

eeZah7Ux 10y ago

> corporate democracy that increases inequality "democracy" makes the sentence an oxymoron.

alphonsegaston 10y ago
You're right. Corporate republicanism would have probably been more accurate.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  "Corporate oligarchy" would be a less partisan way to say this.
  - kmicklas 10y ago
    I think they mean replubican in the representative democracy sense, not the GOP sense.
    - alphonsegaston 10y ago
      Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

evunveot 10y ago

There are quite a few energetic people out there devoted to worker cooperatives and generally developing strategies for the democratization of wealth/capital. The nice part is it doesn't require electoral politicking or lawmaking, just a voluntary change in how people interact and associate economically. http://democracycollaborative.org/ http://democracycollaborative.org/ http://geo.coop http://geo.coop http://fair.coop http://fair.coop

alphonsegaston 10y ago
Alternative economic arrangements will not be able to survive under an authoritarian kleptocracy. They'll just be moved out of the way through some form of corruption. Even under the neoliberal order, they were only barely tolerated. Think about what happened with Tessa and direct sales in many states as the mildest precursor to this kind of future. Whether we like it or not, the country is shifting back towards the 19th century notions of "political economy." These existed in a diminished form under neoliberalism, but were largely swept beside by the triumphalist end of history that reigned. Appeals to fascism and authoritarian communism have already entered the Overton window, so the only option now is to outcompete those explicit political-economic fusions with something new.

sixdimensional 10y ago

Kind of sounds like the hypothetical "technocracy" [1]. I'd be wary of too much science at the same time - needs some balance. What stirs the beating hearts of people on HN likely does not do so for everyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

alphonsegaston 10y ago
I know this is a risk, but I think science and tech have to be at the center because of their association with forward looking narratives. Part of the reframing has to be positioning science and tech as being at the service of constituencies that have been left behind in the past order. Trump has been able to conflate them with elitism because they have thrown their political weight behind a neoliberal political order. Since that's on the its way out, the door is open to align them with a new, more democratic political narrative.