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> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the sl

> That isn't a proposal to replace capitalism Put down the Marxism for 5 seconds and follow my original premise all the way to it's logical end. - Make the slaves as expensive as the natives. - Why would you need slaves in this scenario? - You wouldn't. - If slaves and natives are equal cost, then machines are given incentives to outperform both. - Western liberalism is completely flipped on its head in a world where humans can never compete against machine labor. There is your solution. Close the slave/native arbitrage, let machines compete. This is where you opine about protecting your sacred cows.

ChuckMcM 10y ago
And here is the challenge of that suggestion; what mechanism do you propose to "make them equally expensive" ? There are many things you can 'say' but not 'do', for example 'write the largest integer on this piece of paper'. That is easy to say, and it sounds easy, just put a number down on a piece of paper, but the number requested is not representable and so the suggestion is actually impossible. Your statement "Make the slaves as expensive as the natives" has exactly this quality. And so any follow on argument is moot. Tell us how to accomplish that and we can debate what policy would make that real.
- EekSnakePond 10y ago
  You and germinalphrase should check your emails. I've given detailed answers on how to do all of this and addressed your points.
  - gknoy 10y ago
    I'm sad to read this, because I was hoping you would be willing to share the ideas in a public forum.
    - ChuckMcM 10y ago
      You didn't miss anything. One of the things I've been working to understand the with regard to the continued support of the President is how can I see a set of things and someone else can see a set of things and we draw two diametrically opposed conclusions from it. So far a consistent them has been ideas which are like the ones suggested by the GP which are both simple to say, clearly would solve some great ill if they were possible to do, and disconnected from reality in a fundamental way. Our GP suggests a unilateral quintupling of the minimum wage (as an example). I can see how such a suggestion is highly attractive to someone who hasn't learned or thought about how wages get set and the limits of the ability to arbitrarily control those things. I suspect it would help to get more coverage of Venezuela into the consciousness of these people because it demonstrates some of the effects of not understanding how markets or economies work can affect everyday people. There are lessons there for both sides of this discussion, both for people who advocate a leadership that promises them quick and simple fixes, and for people who believe that rationality will successfully displace their support for a bad actor. Neither of those things are true.
germinalphrase 10y ago
How does this solution provide for the welfare of those natives/slaves [sic] once their labor is replaced by machines - as is your stated goal?
sahaj 10y ago
The "right" hates the idea of a minimum wage.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  Because the "right" don't want to earn minimum wage; they want to earn decent wage, which is problematic in condition of "race to the bottom" caused by influx of people from less developed countries.
andrepd 10y ago
Maybe if you weren't so brazenly agressive and didn't begin every comment with a derisive remark people would pay more attention to you. I know we all must seem very silly and insignificant in comparison to your massive intellect that you can but roll your eyes, but bear with us, will you? Sheesh.
- EekSnakePond 10y ago
  I've been having this argument for decades and I've been called every name in the book, been doxexd, and have had my livelihood threatened multiple times by your fellow sacred cow worshippers. My aggression is preemptive because I know how the conversation always ends, no matter what tone is taken: The sacred cow worshippers swarms, and the heretic is destroyed. This is how this conversation ALWAYS pans out. Always. Without exception. So, If I'm going to get destroyed no matter how this plays out, consider my aggression an indicator that I firmly intend to attack back if you engage in mimetic hostility. Now, with that said: here's how you end the slave/native arbitrage: - Set minimum wage between $25-$40 an hour. - Fix the H1B system so it stops acting as corporate welfare in the form of the cheapest labor of least resistance. - Allow farm workers to unionize - Loosen up commercial/industrial restrictions on housing projects and poor areas in proximity of gentrified areas and allow them to produce and manufacture goods and services to sell directly to the newly gentrified locations. - Raise taxes on corporations who rely on an external workforce. - Raise interest rates and force the popping of the Silicon Valley bubble AND give incentive for municipal bonds to experiment with binding autonomous labor to harvesting, mining, and construction, forcing Silicon Valley to chase actual profits in the countryside instead of filter bubble valuation within the SV circlejerk. (AKA take off the training wheels) The order and timing of these events is a matter of political theatre, but each one of these will inevitably make cheap brown people just as expensive as natives, which will end the ridiculous moral conflations Western liberalism heavily relies on... moral conflations that cause and exacerbate modern resentment. And for the record, the ability of your sacred cows to kill heretics is ending.
soundwave106 10y ago
Your usage of "slaves" seems way too strong to me. From my perspective, most immigrants are seeking economic opportunity voluntarily. This phenomenon is a sort of "global labor arbitrage" and it is perhaps right to argue that industry is exploiting this. Also, there are indeed also certain pockets of immigrant labor dominated industry where the conditions for workers have been so bad, "slavery" might be somewhat applicable. But calling migrants universally slaves to capitalism? I can't see that. Furthermore, at least recently in the United States, not all immigrants are of the "cheap" variety. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2017/01/20/the-top-10-jobs-among-new-immigrants-and-what-they-show-us/#42d3a2e142b5 http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2017/01/20/the-to...) And, even if you want to fix this global labor arbitrage, figuring out how will be hard (at least, to do it without making the problem worse). Historically, government enforced attempts at egalitarian economies have worked out rather poorly.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

And here is the challenge of that suggestion; what mechanism do you propose to "make them equally expensive" ? There are many things you can 'say' but not 'do', for example 'write the largest integer on this piece of paper'. That is easy to say, and it sounds easy, just put a number down on a piece of paper, but the number requested is not representable and so the suggestion is actually impossible. Your statement "Make the slaves as expensive as the natives" has exactly this quality. And so any follow on argument is moot. Tell us how to accomplish that and we can debate what policy would make that real.

EekSnakePond 10y ago
You and germinalphrase should check your emails. I've given detailed answers on how to do all of this and addressed your points.
- gknoy 10y ago
  I'm sad to read this, because I was hoping you would be willing to share the ideas in a public forum.
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    You didn't miss anything. One of the things I've been working to understand the with regard to the continued support of the President is how can I see a set of things and someone else can see a set of things and we draw two diametrically opposed conclusions from it. So far a consistent them has been ideas which are like the ones suggested by the GP which are both simple to say, clearly would solve some great ill if they were possible to do, and disconnected from reality in a fundamental way. Our GP suggests a unilateral quintupling of the minimum wage (as an example). I can see how such a suggestion is highly attractive to someone who hasn't learned or thought about how wages get set and the limits of the ability to arbitrarily control those things. I suspect it would help to get more coverage of Venezuela into the consciousness of these people because it demonstrates some of the effects of not understanding how markets or economies work can affect everyday people. There are lessons there for both sides of this discussion, both for people who advocate a leadership that promises them quick and simple fixes, and for people who believe that rationality will successfully displace their support for a bad actor. Neither of those things are true.

germinalphrase 10y ago

How does this solution provide for the welfare of those natives/slaves [sic] once their labor is replaced by machines - as is your stated goal?

sahaj 10y ago

The "right" hates the idea of a minimum wage.

guard-of-terra 10y ago
Because the "right" don't want to earn minimum wage; they want to earn decent wage, which is problematic in condition of "race to the bottom" caused by influx of people from less developed countries.

andrepd 10y ago

Maybe if you weren't so brazenly agressive and didn't begin every comment with a derisive remark people would pay more attention to you. I know we all must seem very silly and insignificant in comparison to your massive intellect that you can but roll your eyes, but bear with us, will you? Sheesh.

EekSnakePond 10y ago
I've been having this argument for decades and I've been called every name in the book, been doxexd, and have had my livelihood threatened multiple times by your fellow sacred cow worshippers. My aggression is preemptive because I know how the conversation always ends, no matter what tone is taken: The sacred cow worshippers swarms, and the heretic is destroyed. This is how this conversation ALWAYS pans out. Always. Without exception. So, If I'm going to get destroyed no matter how this plays out, consider my aggression an indicator that I firmly intend to attack back if you engage in mimetic hostility. Now, with that said: here's how you end the slave/native arbitrage: - Set minimum wage between $25-$40 an hour. - Fix the H1B system so it stops acting as corporate welfare in the form of the cheapest labor of least resistance. - Allow farm workers to unionize - Loosen up commercial/industrial restrictions on housing projects and poor areas in proximity of gentrified areas and allow them to produce and manufacture goods and services to sell directly to the newly gentrified locations. - Raise taxes on corporations who rely on an external workforce. - Raise interest rates and force the popping of the Silicon Valley bubble AND give incentive for municipal bonds to experiment with binding autonomous labor to harvesting, mining, and construction, forcing Silicon Valley to chase actual profits in the countryside instead of filter bubble valuation within the SV circlejerk. (AKA take off the training wheels) The order and timing of these events is a matter of political theatre, but each one of these will inevitably make cheap brown people just as expensive as natives, which will end the ridiculous moral conflations Western liberalism heavily relies on... moral conflations that cause and exacerbate modern resentment. And for the record, the ability of your sacred cows to kill heretics is ending.

soundwave106 10y ago

Your usage of "slaves" seems way too strong to me. From my perspective, most immigrants are seeking economic opportunity voluntarily. This phenomenon is a sort of "global labor arbitrage" and it is perhaps right to argue that industry is exploiting this. Also, there are indeed also certain pockets of immigrant labor dominated industry where the conditions for workers have been so bad, "slavery" might be somewhat applicable. But calling migrants universally slaves to capitalism? I can't see that. Furthermore, at least recently in the United States, not all immigrants are of the "cheap" variety. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2017/01/20/the-top-10-jobs-among-new-immigrants-and-what-they-show-us/#42d3a2e142b5 http://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2017/01/20/the-to...) And, even if you want to fix this global labor arbitrage, figuring out how will be hard (at least, to do it without making the problem worse). Historically, government enforced attempts at egalitarian economies have worked out rather poorly.