6 ms·

Absolutely. The basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy, are young. How many presently-unthinkable violations of lib

by m_fayer 10y ago

Absolutely. The basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy, are young. How many presently-unthinkable violations of liberalism were committed by a Western nation within the lifespan of someone who is 90 today, with full public support? Outright genocide, systematic persecution and disenfranchisement of whole races and genders, violent militarised colonialism, you name it. Building a just state and society is a slow, delicate, multi-generational project of structural and cultural modification, and we are just at the beginning. We're just now getting to a place where we're moving past barbaric mass violence and mass racist persecution. It's like people look around, notice that we're not in fact in some enlightened Star Trek utopia, declare the whole edifice rotten, and decide that the best response is to gleefully burn it all down.

the_duke 10y ago
It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as literacy tests until the 60ies and arguably still does today. Many European countries were not real Democracies until after WW2, or event until the fall of the soviet union. 60-70, or even 100 years is basically nothing. That's one long lifespan. Let's see if we see it all go down in flames in our lifetimes. (Probably not. Let's hope not). (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
- pm90 10y ago
  I was afraid of the whole burning down thing as well. The protests and outrage around the US have made me a lot more hopeful though.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  The Democratic party of 1919 did not have the same modern liberalist principles of the Democratic party of today. The parties are not static entities with the same principles extending back to their founding.
  - the_duke 10y ago
    Yeah I know, that also wasn't meant as a criticism to the current DNC, it's more about the word 'Democratic party'. You have to appreciate the irony of a `Democrat` filibustering a woman voting rights act. But that's our current view. Reading press articles from back then when this issue was discussed in many countries in Europe is quite entertaining also.
- tornadoboy55 10y ago
  No one except Americans themselves see the USA as the holy grail of modern democracy. That honor would probably befall one of either the West European or Scandinavian countries.
  - jorgescx 10y ago
    Yup, Norway is on the top of 2016's democracy index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_index_by_country_.282016.29 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_in...
kmicklas 10y ago
> basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy Add capitalist property relations though too.

by m_fayer 10y ago

the_duke 10y ago

It's easy to forget that what we understand now as a liberal democracy with free press, rule of law and the right for everyone to vote is extremely young. Just look at the time when women were granted voting rights (1). The US, by some seen as the 'holy grail' of modern democracy, officially allowed women to vote in 1919 (ironically many of the Democratic party were opposed), had extensive voter supression such as literacy tests until the 60ies and arguably still does today. Many European countries were not real Democracies until after WW2, or event until the fall of the soviet union. 60-70, or even 100 years is basically nothing. That's one long lifespan. Let's see if we see it all go down in flames in our lifetimes. (Probably not. Let's hope not). (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage

pm90 10y ago
I was afraid of the whole burning down thing as well. The protests and outrage around the US have made me a lot more hopeful though.
jdmichal 10y ago
The Democratic party of 1919 did not have the same modern liberalist principles of the Democratic party of today. The parties are not static entities with the same principles extending back to their founding.
- the_duke 10y ago
  Yeah I know, that also wasn't meant as a criticism to the current DNC, it's more about the word 'Democratic party'. You have to appreciate the irony of a `Democrat` filibustering a woman voting rights act. But that's our current view. Reading press articles from back then when this issue was discussed in many countries in Europe is quite entertaining also.
tornadoboy55 10y ago
No one except Americans themselves see the USA as the holy grail of modern democracy. That honor would probably befall one of either the West European or Scandinavian countries.
- jorgescx 10y ago
  Yup, Norway is on the top of 2016's democracy index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_index_by_country_.282016.29 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_in...

kmicklas 10y ago

> basics of liberalism as we see it today - rule of law and representative democracy Add capitalist property relations though too.