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> Why's everyone so focused on IT? Everyone can learn how to code, it's not a real science. I think that's exactly why people are focusing on IT. The H-1B pro

> Why's everyone so focused on IT? Everyone can learn how to code, it's not a real science. I think that's exactly why people are focusing on IT. The H-1B program is meant to allow companies to hire foreigners with rare skills that are hard to find domestically. In reality it's abused to import cheap labor and undercut average American workers doing common work like building applications or administering systems. There should be no problem continuing to hire PhDs and other foreigners with actual unique skillsets at $130k.

readhn 10y ago
The abuse of h1b program by IT firms is the issue that has to be separated out and resolved on its own. There is no reason why we should send a freshly graduated physics scientist back to Uganda or whatever because he can't find an employer willing to pay him/her some abstract 130k salary straight out of school (which is A LOT OF MONEY). Again, when I hire - I do it strictly based on skills and experience. If I have to do a bit more paper work to get this talented guy work for us I'll do it - but there is a limit. And at 130k limit a lot of these brains will flow back overseas. It would be a huge mistake for USA to get rid of willing to work just talent like that.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  I don't see any reason why h1b visa holders shouldn't have a high bar to reach. The whole point of the program is to bring the best of the best, not the average or mediocre, which could likely be filled by an American somewhere.
  - intended 10y ago
    People seem to be missing his core point - 130k is absurd money for most industries, aside from Tech and Finance. edit: and not all locations in America pay the same amount of salary for tech workers either.
    - WildUtah 10y ago
      and not all locations in America pay the same amount of salary for tech workers either. Indeed. The $130k limit should be raised to $310k in SF, NY, DC, LA, and Boston.
  - readhn 10y ago
    130k salary is absurdly high amount of money for people outside of IT and finance. Stop living in a bubble. It will price out a lot of talent that will be forced to leave the country. Wich is a huge mistake for American society.
    - dukeluke 10y ago
      I disagree that it would be a huge mistake. American wages are stagnant, and lowering the labor pool will raise demand for workers.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      If that talent is really that much difficult to find locally, they'll pay it, don't worry. And if they don't, that doesn't make the situation any worse. It's impossible to get a H1B VISA right now and they have zero chances to get one, because the quota is ridiculously low and they are all taken by the Indian sweat shops, on top of requiring 1-2 years ahead for the procedure.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  While yes, that newly minted physicist shouldn't be sent back upon receiving her diploma, the H-1B visa is NOT the program that's supposed to keep her here.
snoman 10y ago
> In reality it's abused to import cheap labor and undercut average American workers doing common work like building applications or administering systems. Really? How much should it cost to do common work like building crud applications or administering systems? Right now, (based on all the H1-B, and similar visa holders I know, which is a good amount) it's ~2X the median household income to pay one visa holder to do it. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to make $200-300K to sling crud apps and keep the lights on in a datacenter.
- dimgl 10y ago
  That's the point. It's to discourage employers from using H1-B visas to hire people to make CRUD apps and instead hire domestically.
  - NTDF9 10y ago
    I think companies will just outsource crud jobs. There's enough talent outside the US. Until now, they were being brought in with H1b. Now they'll just do if from across the world.
_Wintermute 10y ago
> There should be no problem continuing to hire PhDs and other foreigners with actual unique skillsets at $130k. You're applying your software-dev tainted view of salaries to the sciences - how much do you think a typical PhD-holding research scientist earns?
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Scientists used to make a good living in the USA. Now the market is flooded with cheap foreigners and science is a road to poverty. Ending the employment of cheap foreigners, including as TAs and RAs, would go a long way to making science a respectable profession again. And it would open the field to American women. When math and science professors can't make a decent living to support a family until after their prime child bearing years, any claims of equal treatment and equal opportunity are nothing but a sham. Science careers today practically demand that women permanently give up any hope of a family just to get on the professor track. And things are just getting worse. It's time to stop importing foreign science grads.
  - _Wintermute 10y ago
    Foreign science grads are what is driving the US as a leader in R&D. Look at the post-docs at labs in MIT, look at the US Nobel prize winners - the majority of them are immigrants If companies are limited to domestic scientists then they'll quite happily move their R&D departments to countries with more relaxed immigration laws. Foreign universities will happily take the best researchers from around the world that are denied work in the US. We're seeing this in the UK from the Brexit fallout. We were getting the brightest from around Europe working in our research labs. Now that we're going to make it more difficult for them they're probably going to go elsewhere.
    - ianai 10y ago
      The elephant no one seems to talk about is: Why are universities not accepting more "local" grad students? In my experience, it was the standardized tests. I was completing an undergrad in math while attempting to the GRE. Meanwhile I heard stories of students in other countries essentially focusing on the GRE as their undergrad equivalents weren't as time consuming/rigorous.

readhn 10y ago

The abuse of h1b program by IT firms is the issue that has to be separated out and resolved on its own. There is no reason why we should send a freshly graduated physics scientist back to Uganda or whatever because he can't find an employer willing to pay him/her some abstract 130k salary straight out of school (which is A LOT OF MONEY). Again, when I hire - I do it strictly based on skills and experience. If I have to do a bit more paper work to get this talented guy work for us I'll do it - but there is a limit. And at 130k limit a lot of these brains will flow back overseas. It would be a huge mistake for USA to get rid of willing to work just talent like that.

dukeluke 10y ago
I don't see any reason why h1b visa holders shouldn't have a high bar to reach. The whole point of the program is to bring the best of the best, not the average or mediocre, which could likely be filled by an American somewhere.
- intended 10y ago
  People seem to be missing his core point - 130k is absurd money for most industries, aside from Tech and Finance. edit: and not all locations in America pay the same amount of salary for tech workers either.
  - WildUtah 10y ago
    and not all locations in America pay the same amount of salary for tech workers either. Indeed. The $130k limit should be raised to $310k in SF, NY, DC, LA, and Boston.
- readhn 10y ago
  130k salary is absurdly high amount of money for people outside of IT and finance. Stop living in a bubble. It will price out a lot of talent that will be forced to leave the country. Wich is a huge mistake for American society.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    I disagree that it would be a huge mistake. American wages are stagnant, and lowering the labor pool will raise demand for workers.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    If that talent is really that much difficult to find locally, they'll pay it, don't worry. And if they don't, that doesn't make the situation any worse. It's impossible to get a H1B VISA right now and they have zero chances to get one, because the quota is ridiculously low and they are all taken by the Indian sweat shops, on top of requiring 1-2 years ahead for the procedure.
st3v3r 10y ago
While yes, that newly minted physicist shouldn't be sent back upon receiving her diploma, the H-1B visa is NOT the program that's supposed to keep her here.

snoman 10y ago

> In reality it's abused to import cheap labor and undercut average American workers doing common work like building applications or administering systems. Really? How much should it cost to do common work like building crud applications or administering systems? Right now, (based on all the H1-B, and similar visa holders I know, which is a good amount) it's ~2X the median household income to pay one visa holder to do it. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to make $200-300K to sling crud apps and keep the lights on in a datacenter.

dimgl 10y ago
That's the point. It's to discourage employers from using H1-B visas to hire people to make CRUD apps and instead hire domestically.
- NTDF9 10y ago
  I think companies will just outsource crud jobs. There's enough talent outside the US. Until now, they were being brought in with H1b. Now they'll just do if from across the world.

_Wintermute 10y ago

> There should be no problem continuing to hire PhDs and other foreigners with actual unique skillsets at $130k. You're applying your software-dev tainted view of salaries to the sciences - how much do you think a typical PhD-holding research scientist earns?

WildUtah 10y ago
Scientists used to make a good living in the USA. Now the market is flooded with cheap foreigners and science is a road to poverty. Ending the employment of cheap foreigners, including as TAs and RAs, would go a long way to making science a respectable profession again. And it would open the field to American women. When math and science professors can't make a decent living to support a family until after their prime child bearing years, any claims of equal treatment and equal opportunity are nothing but a sham. Science careers today practically demand that women permanently give up any hope of a family just to get on the professor track. And things are just getting worse. It's time to stop importing foreign science grads.
- _Wintermute 10y ago
  Foreign science grads are what is driving the US as a leader in R&D. Look at the post-docs at labs in MIT, look at the US Nobel prize winners - the majority of them are immigrants If companies are limited to domestic scientists then they'll quite happily move their R&D departments to countries with more relaxed immigration laws. Foreign universities will happily take the best researchers from around the world that are denied work in the US. We're seeing this in the UK from the Brexit fallout. We were getting the brightest from around Europe working in our research labs. Now that we're going to make it more difficult for them they're probably going to go elsewhere.
  - ianai 10y ago
    The elephant no one seems to talk about is: Why are universities not accepting more "local" grad students? In my experience, it was the standardized tests. I was completing an undergrad in math while attempting to the GRE. Meanwhile I heard stories of students in other countries essentially focusing on the GRE as their undergrad equivalents weren't as time consuming/rigorous.