4 ms·

There's a great movie that's worth a watch if you are interested in this history. It's a fictionalized ( and likely highly dramatized ) version of a real meeti

by dtien 10y ago

There's a great movie that's worth a watch if you are interested in this history. It's a fictionalized ( and likely highly dramatized ) version of a real meeting[0] that took place between the SS leaders and German governmental types at the midway point of the War to discuss the "final solution" for the Jews. But it does illustrate how regular men whether through self-interest, fear, bullying, or expediency will let themselves be talked into, or rationalize themselves into some truly horrific things by fanatical types. I believe I caught it on Netflix or HBO[1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(2001_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(2001_film)

jacquesm 10y ago
Why watch movies about the past when you can observe these things in real life all around you? The biggest question in my head is where do these power types find the large numbers of people to execute their ill plans? It seems like someone is always ready to jump into the role of camp guard at the first opportunity.
- dtien 10y ago
  Well something about history and being doomed to repeat it... But to your question, I don't think it's ever presented to the camp counselors that way initially. I'm sure there's a certain percentage that are maniacs and true believers that are itching to be the camp hall monitors, but I'd wager that's about 10% or less. I'm sure it all starts with morally defensible, likely very reasonable ideas of personal security or welfare. "I'm keeping my family safe!". Before it slowly starts devolving, and you find yourself rationalizing or being an apologist for the higher ups decisions. And then before long, you're the one pulling the trigger, or kicking someone into the chamber. I"m sure that's simplifying it by about 1000x, but I'm sure there's some truth there. Fear of the outsider and self preservation are strong motivators... How we fight that is probably a better question.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    > How we fight that is probably a better question. For me, the answer to that question is to advocate for reducing the power and scope of government at all levels, by maintaining the weapons and skills necessary to effectively resist, and by ensuring others have the right to do the same.
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      Another thing which is quite important is to prevent the creation of systems that enable people to abstract away other people's humanity. One of the main reasons why the nazis established this complex system of bureaucracies, secrecy, many points from defamation, registration, exclusion, deportation, degradation to finally extinction and disposal is that the early versions (grab men, women and children from a village, dig a hole and let soldiers shoot them in the head) was, even for tough people, hard to deal with. Having a complex bureaucracy with many small steps towards extinction allows for big-level atrocities. So checking for small things is just as important as preventing the big crime.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        That's an absolutely amazing realization that I had never seen put to words anywhere. The 'yes ladder' of genocide. Thank you.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        Replying to my own comment after thinking some more about this: It also explains to a large extent the choice of gas for the murders. After all you can open a gas tap a long way away from where the people are that you are going to kill, in fact the person opening the valve may not even know what they are doing (unlikely in this case, but still you could easily arrange it that way). Everybody else is just doing their job right? Herd a bunch of people into a room, remove a bunch of corpses from a room. Nothing to do with killing anybody, or so you could delude yourself. This also ties in with why I'm so totally against drones, robots and other kinds of remote warfare (including aerial bombardment), they make it so much easier to pretend you're not killing real people.

by dtien 10y ago

jacquesm 10y ago

Why watch movies about the past when you can observe these things in real life all around you? The biggest question in my head is where do these power types find the large numbers of people to execute their ill plans? It seems like someone is always ready to jump into the role of camp guard at the first opportunity.

dtien 10y ago
Well something about history and being doomed to repeat it... But to your question, I don't think it's ever presented to the camp counselors that way initially. I'm sure there's a certain percentage that are maniacs and true believers that are itching to be the camp hall monitors, but I'd wager that's about 10% or less. I'm sure it all starts with morally defensible, likely very reasonable ideas of personal security or welfare. "I'm keeping my family safe!". Before it slowly starts devolving, and you find yourself rationalizing or being an apologist for the higher ups decisions. And then before long, you're the one pulling the trigger, or kicking someone into the chamber. I"m sure that's simplifying it by about 1000x, but I'm sure there's some truth there. Fear of the outsider and self preservation are strong motivators... How we fight that is probably a better question.
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  > How we fight that is probably a better question. For me, the answer to that question is to advocate for reducing the power and scope of government at all levels, by maintaining the weapons and skills necessary to effectively resist, and by ensuring others have the right to do the same.
  - elcapitan 10y ago
    Another thing which is quite important is to prevent the creation of systems that enable people to abstract away other people's humanity. One of the main reasons why the nazis established this complex system of bureaucracies, secrecy, many points from defamation, registration, exclusion, deportation, degradation to finally extinction and disposal is that the early versions (grab men, women and children from a village, dig a hole and let soldiers shoot them in the head) was, even for tough people, hard to deal with. Having a complex bureaucracy with many small steps towards extinction allows for big-level atrocities. So checking for small things is just as important as preventing the big crime.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      That's an absolutely amazing realization that I had never seen put to words anywhere. The 'yes ladder' of genocide. Thank you.
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        Replying to my own comment after thinking some more about this: It also explains to a large extent the choice of gas for the murders. After all you can open a gas tap a long way away from where the people are that you are going to kill, in fact the person opening the valve may not even know what they are doing (unlikely in this case, but still you could easily arrange it that way). Everybody else is just doing their job right? Herd a bunch of people into a room, remove a bunch of corpses from a room. Nothing to do with killing anybody, or so you could delude yourself. This also ties in with why I'm so totally against drones, robots and other kinds of remote warfare (including aerial bombardment), they make it so much easier to pretend you're not killing real people.