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Things like humidity, water chemistry, and others affect coffee. We don't understand this process in a scientific manner yet, and the art of calibrating rely on

Things like humidity, water chemistry, and others affect coffee. We don't understand this process in a scientific manner yet, and the art of calibrating rely on our tastebuds to fine tune every method from an espresso machine to a simple turkish coffee. It is still a long way from doable with a machine if you want that perfect cup. That is not even touching the different parameters such as preinfusion, variable pressure, grind, and changes in temperature during the brewing. To my knowledge we do not know how to process coffee in a way such that a machine can model and understand the human taste buds. And it certainly haven't been applied successfully to coffee brewing yet.

TarpitCarnivore 10y ago
All of these variables can be determined by a human and then programmed into a machine. We're talking about easily programmable things, not brain surgery.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  Yes, we can. But every bean is different, even a different roasting profile means it needs to be calibrated and adjusted differently. It's not a simple matrix of input parameters and bean (yet).
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    It seems to me a machine would be better at keeping track of the difference. How many Baristas lookup a bean/roasting-profile/table to see what temp to extract at?
    - hvidgaard 10y ago
      They don't have to. It's something you taste. Pull a shot, calibrate, rinse and repeat until it is as it should be.
leoedin 10y ago
We don't really need to have a machine which models human tastebuds. Coffee brewing is ultimately a chemical process, and so it's naive to suggest that a machine couldn't do it in a better and more repeatable manner than a human can. What I think you're suggesting is that the settings of that chemical process are configured by the barista based on taste, and that they vary based on a number of environmental conditions. Surely then all we need to do is to correlate environmental conditions with brewing settings. Assuming there is a relationship to be found, it sounds like the perfect application of either statistics or machine learning.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  > Surely then all we need to do is to correlate environmental conditions with brewing settings. Assuming there is a relationship to be found, it sounds like the perfect application of either statistics or machine learning. Big companies have been trying for many years, and after millions of dollars spend in R&D they still don't have it figured out yet. Imagine providing a full automatic machine that can produce a cup better that WBC contenders - it could cost thousands of dollars in service fee every year, and still be cheaper than your run of the mill barista. They really want to do this, but it is far from trivial. Either the blend and roasting profile produce a bland coffee that is less susceptible to variations in brewing parameters, or you need to fine tune it multiple times a day, each being different for every roast you have. Things such as when it was harvested, how much rain the plant got, how it was roasted, how old it is, ect. all influence it, along side things such as current external parameters such as humidity.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    But there are coffee machines that produce amazing coffee automatically, they are expensive though. It's possible there is no market for it. It's also possible this is an emerging market.
    - hvidgaard 10y ago
      They produce amazing coffee, once they have been dialed in, and will continue to do so, as long as they are continuesly calibrated. That is my entire point - we still need baristas to do the calibration. Maybe some day we don't, but until then we cannot say we have it figured out at all.
Chris2048 10y ago
> We don't understand this process in a scientific manner yet Again, are you sure? There are industry scientists that study this.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  I'm sure. Either it's a well guarded secret, or they havn't been able to full map the relationships or it's infeasible to make a truly great cup purely with a machine (yet).
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    What about "Espresso Coffee: The Science of Quality" book?
    - hvidgaard 10y ago
      If you can translate it directly to a computer that can adjust an espresso machine, then yes. But you cannot. It is an amazing book (I own it myself), it is a encyclopedia learn the craft of growing, roasting, and brewing some of the best coffee in the world.

TarpitCarnivore 10y ago

All of these variables can be determined by a human and then programmed into a machine. We're talking about easily programmable things, not brain surgery.

hvidgaard 10y ago
Yes, we can. But every bean is different, even a different roasting profile means it needs to be calibrated and adjusted differently. It's not a simple matrix of input parameters and bean (yet).
- Chris2048 10y ago
  It seems to me a machine would be better at keeping track of the difference. How many Baristas lookup a bean/roasting-profile/table to see what temp to extract at?
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    They don't have to. It's something you taste. Pull a shot, calibrate, rinse and repeat until it is as it should be.

leoedin 10y ago

We don't really need to have a machine which models human tastebuds. Coffee brewing is ultimately a chemical process, and so it's naive to suggest that a machine couldn't do it in a better and more repeatable manner than a human can. What I think you're suggesting is that the settings of that chemical process are configured by the barista based on taste, and that they vary based on a number of environmental conditions. Surely then all we need to do is to correlate environmental conditions with brewing settings. Assuming there is a relationship to be found, it sounds like the perfect application of either statistics or machine learning.

hvidgaard 10y ago
> Surely then all we need to do is to correlate environmental conditions with brewing settings. Assuming there is a relationship to be found, it sounds like the perfect application of either statistics or machine learning. Big companies have been trying for many years, and after millions of dollars spend in R&D they still don't have it figured out yet. Imagine providing a full automatic machine that can produce a cup better that WBC contenders - it could cost thousands of dollars in service fee every year, and still be cheaper than your run of the mill barista. They really want to do this, but it is far from trivial. Either the blend and roasting profile produce a bland coffee that is less susceptible to variations in brewing parameters, or you need to fine tune it multiple times a day, each being different for every roast you have. Things such as when it was harvested, how much rain the plant got, how it was roasted, how old it is, ect. all influence it, along side things such as current external parameters such as humidity.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  But there are coffee machines that produce amazing coffee automatically, they are expensive though. It's possible there is no market for it. It's also possible this is an emerging market.
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    They produce amazing coffee, once they have been dialed in, and will continue to do so, as long as they are continuesly calibrated. That is my entire point - we still need baristas to do the calibration. Maybe some day we don't, but until then we cannot say we have it figured out at all.

Chris2048 10y ago

> We don't understand this process in a scientific manner yet Again, are you sure? There are industry scientists that study this.

hvidgaard 10y ago
I'm sure. Either it's a well guarded secret, or they havn't been able to full map the relationships or it's infeasible to make a truly great cup purely with a machine (yet).
- Chris2048 10y ago
  What about "Espresso Coffee: The Science of Quality" book?
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    If you can translate it directly to a computer that can adjust an espresso machine, then yes. But you cannot. It is an amazing book (I own it myself), it is a encyclopedia learn the craft of growing, roasting, and brewing some of the best coffee in the world.