6 ms·

Having coffee made by a barista is about service, serving, that is a premium compared to coffee made by a machine. Why would I pay premium price for getting st

Having coffee made by a barista is about service, serving, that is a premium compared to coffee made by a machine. Why would I pay premium price for getting stuff from a will-less machine, that I can get cheaper from other such machines. Having coffee made for me by a human with free will, by free will, being made as well as it possible for a human is what is worth a premium price over the simple cost of ingredients and maintenance. For me, and I thing the future of economy the quality human labour with heart and soul put into the product is worth more than automation ( for the sake of automation)

blazespin 10y ago
Yeah, no kidding. What's the point of having money if someone can't make us a nice submissive cup of coffee.
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  Actually kind of. But I think it is not about being submissive, but creating something for another person, with the will to create joy for the other. Slaves cannot put this premium into things, nor can machines. Paying for mass produced stuff is worth only so much, but hand made stuff is worth more because of this in my eyes. But sure, you can always bash others for being dominant/submissive and enjoy the company of robots instead, and clap for another step in the direction of a uniformized dull mass produced world, where there is no submission, just freedom within will-less machines. I prefer a different freedom, based on free will. *edit: phone autocompletion corrected.
- ehnto 10y ago
  Forgive me if I have read you wrong, but only from a place of ignorance could a statement like that be said without humor. You are suggesting that being a Barista is such a low peg on society and such a suffering to endure that it is akin to subservience. Many baristas are incredibly talented and proud of what they do and make coffee an artisan pursuit. Not only that, but it is perfectly alright to enjoy serving coffee and enjoying customers company even if it isn't an artisan task for you and is just a job. Regardless of all that, just because you replace a barista with a robot does not mean they will suddenly be interested in STEM fields or art or music or furthering a corporate career. I know you didn't suggest that, but the implication from others seems to be that if someone isn't doing an engineering job then they just aren't living correctly and they sure would if only they didn't have to do their blue collar job. That's clearly not the case nor will it ever be, no matter the will of progress and innovation.
  - jpgvm 10y ago
    It's clearly sarcasm.
    - ehnto 10y ago
      Right. Clearly sarcasm, but what isn't clear is how they actually feel about the issue.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    > replace a barista with a robot does not mean they will suddenly be interested in STEM fields Any coffee shop that does it will do it just for the money. They won't shed a tear for the barista who is now out of work. If it doesn't save money, if people remain cheaper than machines, then the barista will keep the job. Anyway most people who serve coffee are just _serving_ coffee, giving the trade a name doesn't automatically mean that the product is better. In my limited experience of coffee shops (I like coffee but it disagrees with me) the killer features of the good ones are good quality ingredients and repeatability. Whether it's made by machine, barista, or druid incantations it's all the same to me as long as the product is good.
    - ehnto 10y ago
      I hear you and that's likely the attitude most people have toward coffee and coffee places. Coffee can be a product like a bottle of water, and you can buy it from most places like you would a chocolate bar. For those circumstances which I imagine is the majority, automated coffee would be perfect. But there is definitely a coffee culture beneath that, and it's a lot more like a cocktail bar than a drive through bottle shop for example. The coffee shops I prefer are usually because the coffee is good, but the people serving and the venue itself were also a great experience. An example is the coffee store next door which has a fireplace, great music, sofas and the people behind the counter are all about getting to know the regulars and making everyone welcome. They take huge pride in what they do, which I guess is what my little rant was about. To call them servants undermines a job that is their passion and that's a bummer.
Chris2048 10y ago
If someone puts heart and soul into something, I'd sooner they keep it for themselves. I really just want a good coffee, nothing more.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  The issue is, for now, a machine can make good coffee, but it cannot make great coffee. There is a lot of science behind the perfect cup that we still don't understand, thus making a machine understand it is impossible. It is still a craft. If I go down to one of my local roasters, I know I get servered the near perfect cup. A machine would have to be calibrated multiple times a day to achieve the same level of consistency. And the barista would need to hone his/her skill to keep doing this.
  - LunaSea 10y ago
    You're most likely right but you seem also much more enthusiastic and passionate about coffee than most. Most people are fine to just get a good (not great) coffee in the morning on their way to work if only it goes fast enough and friction to use this system is low enough.
    - hvidgaard 10y ago
      I certainly am. I'm a coffee nerd to the core. You're completely correct that most people just want a good cup, and they can already get that from McD - it is seriously a good cup. It's not great, but it's fast and the price is reasonable, albeit somewhat expensive for that it is (though, it is cheaper than starbucks and the like).
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > There is a lot of science behind the perfect cup that we still don't understand Are you sure? > making a machine understand it is impossible. It is still a craft. Why? What is a 'craft'? > A machine would have to be calibrated multiple times a day to achieve the same level of consistency Don't you mean a simple machine? There's a lot of science suggesting the perfect cup isn't so objective.
heeen 10y ago
What you wrote resonates with me. I have an espresso machine and grinder at home and I enjoy making coffee for guests and myself. I wish I could pull off even simple latte art. In a post scarcity world, I imagine human work with its imperfections will have its own wabi sabi value. People already pay a hefty premium for artisan handmade products like pottery, furniture, even jeans. “I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway" - the man laughed - "people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And," the man said with a smile, "it's a good way of meeting people. So where are you from, anyway?” ― Iain M. Banks, Use of Weapons
TarpitCarnivore 10y ago
I highly suggest you read the interview with G&B owners from Barista magazine. They go into detail about why they choose pre-dosing and automated machines over manual service. Their primary reason? Service. There is a lot more to coffee service than just someone spending 3-4 pouring out water over a bed of coffee grounds or tamping a puck. You can find it here starting on page 72 http://baristamagazine.epubxp.com/i/659497-apr-may-2016 http://baristamagazine.epubxp.com/i/659497-apr-may-2016

blazespin 10y ago

Yeah, no kidding. What's the point of having money if someone can't make us a nice submissive cup of coffee.

kodfodrasz 10y ago
Actually kind of. But I think it is not about being submissive, but creating something for another person, with the will to create joy for the other. Slaves cannot put this premium into things, nor can machines. Paying for mass produced stuff is worth only so much, but hand made stuff is worth more because of this in my eyes. But sure, you can always bash others for being dominant/submissive and enjoy the company of robots instead, and clap for another step in the direction of a uniformized dull mass produced world, where there is no submission, just freedom within will-less machines. I prefer a different freedom, based on free will. *edit: phone autocompletion corrected.
ehnto 10y ago
Forgive me if I have read you wrong, but only from a place of ignorance could a statement like that be said without humor. You are suggesting that being a Barista is such a low peg on society and such a suffering to endure that it is akin to subservience. Many baristas are incredibly talented and proud of what they do and make coffee an artisan pursuit. Not only that, but it is perfectly alright to enjoy serving coffee and enjoying customers company even if it isn't an artisan task for you and is just a job. Regardless of all that, just because you replace a barista with a robot does not mean they will suddenly be interested in STEM fields or art or music or furthering a corporate career. I know you didn't suggest that, but the implication from others seems to be that if someone isn't doing an engineering job then they just aren't living correctly and they sure would if only they didn't have to do their blue collar job. That's clearly not the case nor will it ever be, no matter the will of progress and innovation.
- jpgvm 10y ago
  It's clearly sarcasm.
  - ehnto 10y ago
    Right. Clearly sarcasm, but what isn't clear is how they actually feel about the issue.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  > replace a barista with a robot does not mean they will suddenly be interested in STEM fields Any coffee shop that does it will do it just for the money. They won't shed a tear for the barista who is now out of work. If it doesn't save money, if people remain cheaper than machines, then the barista will keep the job. Anyway most people who serve coffee are just _serving_ coffee, giving the trade a name doesn't automatically mean that the product is better. In my limited experience of coffee shops (I like coffee but it disagrees with me) the killer features of the good ones are good quality ingredients and repeatability. Whether it's made by machine, barista, or druid incantations it's all the same to me as long as the product is good.
  - ehnto 10y ago
    I hear you and that's likely the attitude most people have toward coffee and coffee places. Coffee can be a product like a bottle of water, and you can buy it from most places like you would a chocolate bar. For those circumstances which I imagine is the majority, automated coffee would be perfect. But there is definitely a coffee culture beneath that, and it's a lot more like a cocktail bar than a drive through bottle shop for example. The coffee shops I prefer are usually because the coffee is good, but the people serving and the venue itself were also a great experience. An example is the coffee store next door which has a fireplace, great music, sofas and the people behind the counter are all about getting to know the regulars and making everyone welcome. They take huge pride in what they do, which I guess is what my little rant was about. To call them servants undermines a job that is their passion and that's a bummer.

Chris2048 10y ago

If someone puts heart and soul into something, I'd sooner they keep it for themselves. I really just want a good coffee, nothing more.

hvidgaard 10y ago
The issue is, for now, a machine can make good coffee, but it cannot make great coffee. There is a lot of science behind the perfect cup that we still don't understand, thus making a machine understand it is impossible. It is still a craft. If I go down to one of my local roasters, I know I get servered the near perfect cup. A machine would have to be calibrated multiple times a day to achieve the same level of consistency. And the barista would need to hone his/her skill to keep doing this.
- LunaSea 10y ago
  You're most likely right but you seem also much more enthusiastic and passionate about coffee than most. Most people are fine to just get a good (not great) coffee in the morning on their way to work if only it goes fast enough and friction to use this system is low enough.
  - hvidgaard 10y ago
    I certainly am. I'm a coffee nerd to the core. You're completely correct that most people just want a good cup, and they can already get that from McD - it is seriously a good cup. It's not great, but it's fast and the price is reasonable, albeit somewhat expensive for that it is (though, it is cheaper than starbucks and the like).
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > There is a lot of science behind the perfect cup that we still don't understand Are you sure? > making a machine understand it is impossible. It is still a craft. Why? What is a 'craft'? > A machine would have to be calibrated multiple times a day to achieve the same level of consistency Don't you mean a simple machine? There's a lot of science suggesting the perfect cup isn't so objective.

heeen 10y ago

What you wrote resonates with me. I have an espresso machine and grinder at home and I enjoy making coffee for guests and myself. I wish I could pull off even simple latte art. In a post scarcity world, I imagine human work with its imperfections will have its own wabi sabi value. People already pay a hefty premium for artisan handmade products like pottery, furniture, even jeans. “I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway" - the man laughed - "people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And," the man said with a smile, "it's a good way of meeting people. So where are you from, anyway?” ― Iain M. Banks, Use of Weapons

TarpitCarnivore 10y ago

I highly suggest you read the interview with G&B owners from Barista magazine. They go into detail about why they choose pre-dosing and automated machines over manual service. Their primary reason? Service. There is a lot more to coffee service than just someone spending 3-4 pouring out water over a bed of coffee grounds or tamping a puck. You can find it here starting on page 72 http://baristamagazine.epubxp.com/i/659497-apr-may-2016 http://baristamagazine.epubxp.com/i/659497-apr-may-2016