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> My view on its toxicity comes in part from too many conversations with lawyers over the years: lawyers (like engineers, honestly) are conservative, worst-case

by cyphar 10y ago

> My view on its toxicity comes in part from too many conversations with lawyers over the years: lawyers (like engineers, honestly) are conservative, worst-case thinkers by nature -- and with the AGPL, one needn't much imagination to get to a worst-case that threatens one's entire business. Sure. But as an engineer, I can also think of many worst-cases that result for computer users if we commit to only using permissive licenses. In particular, there's no guarantee that a user will ever be given the source code for a product they buy. So there's suddenly a reduced ability for people to become self-taught programmers or to fix their own computers and devices. And the ultimate worst case is that we move to a fully proprietary world built on the ashes of all of these projects trying to be permissive because they "didn't care about making money". Many new projects are designed around being networked and interacting through networked protocols. It would be facetious to claim that there isn't an issue with the current state of licenses which make no attempt to handle this situation. The AGPL attempts to do so. And yes, I know you were never a fan of the original GPL, and that you've always been anti-AGPL. But clearly you see the benefits of copyleft because you've spent a majority of your life working on a copyleft codebase (illumos)! > As further evidence: there are a few projects that have started as AGPL, but moved away from it as they have needed broader adoption[1] There are also examples of projects which are not that way. Such as ownCloud and NextCloud. Interesting that you fail to mention the success stories of the AGPL. Several ISPs in Europe have started to set up NextCloud servers for their customers and thanks to the AGPL those customers can request the source for the ISPs modified version of NextCloud. That would not be possible under other licenses.

bcantrill 10y ago
I feel that we're in a post-revolutionary phase of open source[1] -- and we no longer need the radical instruments of the GPL (and certainly not the AGPL). Yes, there are actors that consume open source, modify it in important ways and never give back (AWS: looking at you!), but in the new world of software services, no open source license (including the AGPL!) is going to coerce contributions from actors who have no intention of contributing -- licenses that attempt this simply will impede adoption of the software they cover. And indeed, I think coercion is the wrong way to think about it; rather, we must focus on encouraging contribution by lowering the barriers to adoption as much as possible. As you point out, I still do prefer the weak file-based copyleft of the MPLv2 as a compromise (which we selected for Triton and Manta[2]) -- but like any good compromise, it tends to be universally derided by the poles of the debate. [1] http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2012/08/01/post-revolutionary-open-source/ http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2012/08/01/post-revolutionary-op... [2] https://www.joyent.com/blog/sdc-and-manta-are-now-open-source https://www.joyent.com/blog/sdc-and-manta-are-now-open-sourc...
- brennen 10y ago
  > I feel that we're in a post-revolutionary phase of open source It seems increasingly clear to me that this is true, albeit in the sense that the revolutionary aims of the FOSS movement (if we can genuinely lump things together) have been for the most part utterly defeated, and the handful of people who are sincerely concerned about them are now engaged in a tattered and obviously doomed rear-guard action. Open source as an engineering approach is doing fine, of course: Its practical benefits turn out to provide a great deal of leverage for centralizing and consolidating power.
  - davexunit 10y ago
    >and the handful of people who are sincerely concerned about them are now engaged in a tattered and obviously doomed rear-guard action. This is very demeaning and insulting. The revolution is alive and well.
    - brennen 10y ago
      Since it was unclear from my comment: I consider myself an active (if entirely unimportant) participant in the movement, and the state of affairs I describe is one I'm deeply concerned by. I still see it as broadly true that we're in bad shape and losing ground fast.
      - davexunit 10y ago
        Hmm, sorry for misinterpreting, but I disagree that we're in bad shape. Free software has never been more popular. I've never been able to do more with 100% free software than right now. I owe my career to free software. The threats are great, I agree, but we will keep fighting.
        brennen 10y ago
        > I owe my career to free software. Me too. :) I'm not giving up - and I agree that both as an end user and a developer, there's plenty to appreciate right now. Still, I think there are a lot of hard, complicated thoughts to be had about the distribution of power and the direction things are headed.

by cyphar 10y ago

bcantrill 10y ago

I feel that we're in a post-revolutionary phase of open source[1] -- and we no longer need the radical instruments of the GPL (and certainly not the AGPL). Yes, there are actors that consume open source, modify it in important ways and never give back (AWS: looking at you!), but in the new world of software services, no open source license (including the AGPL!) is going to coerce contributions from actors who have no intention of contributing -- licenses that attempt this simply will impede adoption of the software they cover. And indeed, I think coercion is the wrong way to think about it; rather, we must focus on encouraging contribution by lowering the barriers to adoption as much as possible. As you point out, I still do prefer the weak file-based copyleft of the MPLv2 as a compromise (which we selected for Triton and Manta[2]) -- but like any good compromise, it tends to be universally derided by the poles of the debate. [1] http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2012/08/01/post-revolutionary-open-source/ http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2012/08/01/post-revolutionary-op... [2] https://www.joyent.com/blog/sdc-and-manta-are-now-open-source https://www.joyent.com/blog/sdc-and-manta-are-now-open-sourc...

brennen 10y ago
> I feel that we're in a post-revolutionary phase of open source It seems increasingly clear to me that this is true, albeit in the sense that the revolutionary aims of the FOSS movement (if we can genuinely lump things together) have been for the most part utterly defeated, and the handful of people who are sincerely concerned about them are now engaged in a tattered and obviously doomed rear-guard action. Open source as an engineering approach is doing fine, of course: Its practical benefits turn out to provide a great deal of leverage for centralizing and consolidating power.
- davexunit 10y ago
  >and the handful of people who are sincerely concerned about them are now engaged in a tattered and obviously doomed rear-guard action. This is very demeaning and insulting. The revolution is alive and well.
  - brennen 10y ago
    Since it was unclear from my comment: I consider myself an active (if entirely unimportant) participant in the movement, and the state of affairs I describe is one I'm deeply concerned by. I still see it as broadly true that we're in bad shape and losing ground fast.
    - davexunit 10y ago
      Hmm, sorry for misinterpreting, but I disagree that we're in bad shape. Free software has never been more popular. I've never been able to do more with 100% free software than right now. I owe my career to free software. The threats are great, I agree, but we will keep fighting.
      - brennen 10y ago
        > I owe my career to free software. Me too. :) I'm not giving up - and I agree that both as an end user and a developer, there's plenty to appreciate right now. Still, I think there are a lot of hard, complicated thoughts to be had about the distribution of power and the direction things are headed.