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Does Mithril implement something akin to Redux? Otherwise, I'd argue that those graphs related to size aren't quite correct. Also, fetch isn't required for eit

Does Mithril implement something akin to Redux? Otherwise, I'd argue that those graphs related to size aren't quite correct. Also, fetch isn't required for either React or Vue.js, could certainly just use the built XHR API to get down even further.

lhorie 10y ago
> Does Mithril implement something akin to Redux Depends on what you mean by "akin". The core of Redux is just a few lines of code with a set of very opinionated conventions surrounding it, plus a bunch of utilities that people may or may not use. Angular's services serve a similar purpose to redux, but the approach is quite different. Mithril's idiomatic approach is similar to Redux in the sense that it's largely convention-based, but it doesn't actually require any specialized code. We could talk about non-idiomatic options, but from my observations, Redux is the most popular state management convention/library set for React and vuex is to Vue what Redux is to React. In any case, were talking about a 2kb difference, so it's not like it makes that much of a difference. Fetch is not required by any library, but a) realistically nobody uses the XHR API directly and b) projects typically do require XHR capabilities. If we're going to be removing things, note that Mithril and Angular are modular and can also be trimmed down if the comparison criteria involves removing things like XHR. Also, if "using the built-in XHR API" means re-inventing basic things like querystring parsing, then a library starts to look a lot more appealing again, and at that point, we're back to the point that Mithril's XHR utilities are smaller than most others that have comparable feature sets (e.g. Axios, superagent).
- baconomatic 10y ago
  I'm not expecting there to be a huge difference, but it looks silly to include non-standard features for both React and Vue. As for performance, do you have a setup that we could see that shows how those are generated? Just genuinely curious.
  - lhorie 10y ago
    Well, maybe we just disagree on this point, but I think it makes more sense to compare apples to apples. To frame in a different way, given that Mithril isn't solely a view library, would you say it makes more sense to compare against a typical Backbone setup including dependencies like jQuery, or just compare against Marionette alone? The performance numbers are explained in more detailed in the frameworks comparison page (they're dbmonster average render times). There are links to each implementation (they are all naive, using production-mode versions).
    - baconomatic 10y ago
      Perhaps we do disagree, that's okay! I think a fair comparison would be Mithril vs Backbone, but not necessarily with using jQuery as you could use Zepto. I think it's really tough to do comparisons well and what it really comes down to, in my opinion, is how useful the library more so than the size and performance (within reason). Also, my mistake on missing the links to the implementations in the comparison. Perhaps there needs to be a bit more contrast between the copy and the links? Anyways, I've used Mithril and I think it's great, just wanted to make sure that the comparisons were fair.
  - dwaltrip 10y ago
    Is redux considered "standard" in react land? I thought a lot of projects don't make use of it.
    - baconomatic 10y ago
      I'd say it's a standard when you are getting into bigger applications, but the Redux docs do say that you might need it: http://redux.js.org/ http://redux.js.org/ So, I wouldn't consider it a standard for doing performance/size comparisons.
    - jbucaran 10y ago
      Redux is an opinionated implementation of the SAM pattern for React. The same pattern can be seen in the Elm Architecture. • http://sam.js.org http://sam.js.org Now, I don't know how old this pattern is, or whether it was already commonplace 15 years ago. I was introduced to these ideas first through Redux, then learned Elm, the found SAM.
patricius 10y ago
Complete sidenote: Here is an example with something Redux-like done with Mithril: https://github.com/lhorie/mithril.js/blob/next/examples/todomvc/todomvc.js https://github.com/lhorie/mithril.js/blob/next/examples/todo...
wishinghand 10y ago
> Also, fetch isn't required for either React or Vue.js, could certainly just use the built XHR API to get down even further. While true, Mithril does have an XHR interface built in, while Vue doesn't and I don't think React does, so it's a fair comparison to include those in the bundle.
barneycarroll 10y ago
There's a stream lib (not included in core, it's a separate package), which fulfils some data flow concerns. The DbMonster implementation could have used those. TBH using Redux for DbMonster is a bit besides the point of the exercise IMO.

lhorie 10y ago

> Does Mithril implement something akin to Redux Depends on what you mean by "akin". The core of Redux is just a few lines of code with a set of very opinionated conventions surrounding it, plus a bunch of utilities that people may or may not use. Angular's services serve a similar purpose to redux, but the approach is quite different. Mithril's idiomatic approach is similar to Redux in the sense that it's largely convention-based, but it doesn't actually require any specialized code. We could talk about non-idiomatic options, but from my observations, Redux is the most popular state management convention/library set for React and vuex is to Vue what Redux is to React. In any case, were talking about a 2kb difference, so it's not like it makes that much of a difference. Fetch is not required by any library, but a) realistically nobody uses the XHR API directly and b) projects typically do require XHR capabilities. If we're going to be removing things, note that Mithril and Angular are modular and can also be trimmed down if the comparison criteria involves removing things like XHR. Also, if "using the built-in XHR API" means re-inventing basic things like querystring parsing, then a library starts to look a lot more appealing again, and at that point, we're back to the point that Mithril's XHR utilities are smaller than most others that have comparable feature sets (e.g. Axios, superagent).

baconomatic 10y ago
I'm not expecting there to be a huge difference, but it looks silly to include non-standard features for both React and Vue. As for performance, do you have a setup that we could see that shows how those are generated? Just genuinely curious.
- lhorie 10y ago
  Well, maybe we just disagree on this point, but I think it makes more sense to compare apples to apples. To frame in a different way, given that Mithril isn't solely a view library, would you say it makes more sense to compare against a typical Backbone setup including dependencies like jQuery, or just compare against Marionette alone? The performance numbers are explained in more detailed in the frameworks comparison page (they're dbmonster average render times). There are links to each implementation (they are all naive, using production-mode versions).
  - baconomatic 10y ago
    Perhaps we do disagree, that's okay! I think a fair comparison would be Mithril vs Backbone, but not necessarily with using jQuery as you could use Zepto. I think it's really tough to do comparisons well and what it really comes down to, in my opinion, is how useful the library more so than the size and performance (within reason). Also, my mistake on missing the links to the implementations in the comparison. Perhaps there needs to be a bit more contrast between the copy and the links? Anyways, I've used Mithril and I think it's great, just wanted to make sure that the comparisons were fair.
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  Is redux considered "standard" in react land? I thought a lot of projects don't make use of it.
  - baconomatic 10y ago
    I'd say it's a standard when you are getting into bigger applications, but the Redux docs do say that you might need it: http://redux.js.org/ http://redux.js.org/ So, I wouldn't consider it a standard for doing performance/size comparisons.
  - jbucaran 10y ago
    Redux is an opinionated implementation of the SAM pattern for React. The same pattern can be seen in the Elm Architecture. • http://sam.js.org http://sam.js.org Now, I don't know how old this pattern is, or whether it was already commonplace 15 years ago. I was introduced to these ideas first through Redux, then learned Elm, the found SAM.

patricius 10y ago

Complete sidenote: Here is an example with something Redux-like done with Mithril: https://github.com/lhorie/mithril.js/blob/next/examples/todomvc/todomvc.js https://github.com/lhorie/mithril.js/blob/next/examples/todo...

wishinghand 10y ago

> Also, fetch isn't required for either React or Vue.js, could certainly just use the built XHR API to get down even further. While true, Mithril does have an XHR interface built in, while Vue doesn't and I don't think React does, so it's a fair comparison to include those in the bundle.

barneycarroll 10y ago

There's a stream lib (not included in core, it's a separate package), which fulfils some data flow concerns. The DbMonster implementation could have used those. TBH using Redux for DbMonster is a bit besides the point of the exercise IMO.