4 ms·

It's crazy to think we are the universe observing and trying to understand itself. Matter organised in a certain way is able to observe itself? How weird is tha

by remir 10y ago

It's crazy to think we are the universe observing and trying to understand itself. Matter organised in a certain way is able to observe itself? How weird is that!

acchow 10y ago
This and Godel's Incompleteness (equivalently the halting problem) and entropy (which gives the "arrow of time") I always find endlessly strange.
- nerfhammer 10y ago
  what about human consciousness?
  - cLeEOGPw 10y ago
    What about it? Any collection of rocks put on a grid with certain rules can become "conscious". Neither your little awareness of yourself, nor someones feeling of "endlessly strange" things mean anything when talking about whether universe is holographic or not.
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    Totally normal. I experience it every day!
  - acchow 10y ago
    "this" was referring to human consciousness (since I was referring to a comment about that)
wturner 10y ago
This is the perspective that I hardly ever hear discussed when the issue of "human freedom" is brought up. If you assume we are a result of the big bang, then the causal relationship infers humans are not free. If on the other hand you assume humans "are" the universe, then an entirely different perspective seems to be possible albeit one that is much more confusing to reason about.
- azeirah 10y ago
  Daniel Dennet wrote a book arguing for the existence of free will despite the determinism of the universe. It's called the evolution of free will. You might want to check that out if you'd like to know more about that perspective.
  - rocqua 10y ago
    I have found that discussions on 'free will' tend to be doomed from the start because no-one can agree on a definition of free will.
- fpoling 10y ago
  Freedom of will is completely compatible with fully deterministic world. Just consider that there are many fully deterministic worlds but the one one perceives themselves in depends on freedom of choice.
  - ZeroFries 10y ago
    Who chooses the world to perceive? How is the choice made?
    - fpoling 10y ago
      That are implementation details. The point is that apparent determinism of the physical world has no implications for free will considerations and cannot be used as an argument against it.
hosh 10y ago
Non-dual philosophies, such as transcendental non-dual Shaiva Tantra is based around that.
cgh 10y ago
Douglas Hofstadter (Godel, Escher, Bach) refers to this as a "strange loop".
trappedintime 10y ago
"God is consciousness, and we are all god trying to realize our full potential." --Hicks
pc2g4d 10y ago
Pascal in "Pensees" used this perplexing notion to argue for the reality of the soul. Interesting to see people grappling with these ideas through the centuries: "And what completes our incapability of knowing things, is the fact that they are simple, and that we are composed of two opposite natures, different in kind, soul and body. For it is impossible that our rational part should be other than spiritual; and if any one maintain that we are simply corporeal, this would far more exclude us from the knowledge of things, there being nothing so inconceivable as to say that matter knows itself. It is impossible to imagine how it should know itself. "So if we are simply material, we can know nothing at all; and if we are composed of mind and matter, we cannot know perfectly things which are simple, whether spiritual or corporeal. ... "Who would not think, seeing us compose all things of mind and body, but that this mixture would be quite intelligible to us? Yet it is the very thing we least understand. Man is to himself the most wonderful object in nature; for he cannot conceive what the body is, still less what the mind is, and least of all how a body should be united to a mind. This is the consummation of his difficulties, and yet it is his very being. Modus quo corporibus adhærent spiritus comprehendi ab hominibus non potest, et hoc tamen homo est. [The manner in which spirits are united to bodies cannot be understood by men, yet such is man---Augustine]."
- mileycyrusXOXO 10y ago
  How does one save comments? I would like to read up further on Pensees.
  - grzm 10y ago
    You can click the "favorite" link in the comment header. Note that favorited comments are public: anyone clicking through your profile can also see which comments you've favorited, if that matters to you.

by remir 10y ago

It's crazy to think we are the universe observing and trying to understand itself. Matter organised in a certain way is able to observe itself? How weird is that!

acchow 10y ago

This and Godel's Incompleteness (equivalently the halting problem) and entropy (which gives the "arrow of time") I always find endlessly strange.

nerfhammer 10y ago
what about human consciousness?
- cLeEOGPw 10y ago
  What about it? Any collection of rocks put on a grid with certain rules can become "conscious". Neither your little awareness of yourself, nor someones feeling of "endlessly strange" things mean anything when talking about whether universe is holographic or not.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  Totally normal. I experience it every day!
- acchow 10y ago
  "this" was referring to human consciousness (since I was referring to a comment about that)

wturner 10y ago

This is the perspective that I hardly ever hear discussed when the issue of "human freedom" is brought up. If you assume we are a result of the big bang, then the causal relationship infers humans are not free. If on the other hand you assume humans "are" the universe, then an entirely different perspective seems to be possible albeit one that is much more confusing to reason about.

azeirah 10y ago
Daniel Dennet wrote a book arguing for the existence of free will despite the determinism of the universe. It's called the evolution of free will. You might want to check that out if you'd like to know more about that perspective.
- rocqua 10y ago
  I have found that discussions on 'free will' tend to be doomed from the start because no-one can agree on a definition of free will.
fpoling 10y ago
Freedom of will is completely compatible with fully deterministic world. Just consider that there are many fully deterministic worlds but the one one perceives themselves in depends on freedom of choice.
- ZeroFries 10y ago
  Who chooses the world to perceive? How is the choice made?
  - fpoling 10y ago
    That are implementation details. The point is that apparent determinism of the physical world has no implications for free will considerations and cannot be used as an argument against it.

hosh 10y ago

Non-dual philosophies, such as transcendental non-dual Shaiva Tantra is based around that.

cgh 10y ago

Douglas Hofstadter (Godel, Escher, Bach) refers to this as a "strange loop".

trappedintime 10y ago

"God is consciousness, and we are all god trying to realize our full potential." --Hicks

pc2g4d 10y ago

Pascal in "Pensees" used this perplexing notion to argue for the reality of the soul. Interesting to see people grappling with these ideas through the centuries: "And what completes our incapability of knowing things, is the fact that they are simple, and that we are composed of two opposite natures, different in kind, soul and body. For it is impossible that our rational part should be other than spiritual; and if any one maintain that we are simply corporeal, this would far more exclude us from the knowledge of things, there being nothing so inconceivable as to say that matter knows itself. It is impossible to imagine how it should know itself. "So if we are simply material, we can know nothing at all; and if we are composed of mind and matter, we cannot know perfectly things which are simple, whether spiritual or corporeal. ... "Who would not think, seeing us compose all things of mind and body, but that this mixture would be quite intelligible to us? Yet it is the very thing we least understand. Man is to himself the most wonderful object in nature; for he cannot conceive what the body is, still less what the mind is, and least of all how a body should be united to a mind. This is the consummation of his difficulties, and yet it is his very being. Modus quo corporibus adhærent spiritus comprehendi ab hominibus non potest, et hoc tamen homo est. [The manner in which spirits are united to bodies cannot be understood by men, yet such is man---Augustine]."

mileycyrusXOXO 10y ago
How does one save comments? I would like to read up further on Pensees.
- grzm 10y ago
  You can click the "favorite" link in the comment header. Note that favorited comments are public: anyone clicking through your profile can also see which comments you've favorited, if that matters to you.