5 ms·

Let's not mention the consistent gaming of classifications and salaries or the fact that Visas without a quick path to permanent residency are just a legal form

Let's not mention the consistent gaming of classifications and salaries or the fact that Visas without a quick path to permanent residency are just a legal form of indentured servitude with all the perverse incentives and power imbalances you'd expect. There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking.

virmundi 10y ago
What many policy makers and C-levels don't understand, is once freed to their home country, the H1's now have process knowledge that they, and their peers, lacked. They know how your company works. They can extend that model in their home space to come after you. All of those processes that cost millions to form are now "free" in a low cost country.
- dsl 10y ago
  ...and they often leave with source code. (I've personally helped 3 companies deal with that very issue in the last year)
  - ireadfaces 10y ago
    I love to take source code away. It's fun.
- mistermann 10y ago
  I very much doubt they don't understand this, it's not exactly rocket science. Boosting earnings QoQ or YoY to pop the share price can easily result in many millions of immediate payout in stock options, what happens in the longer term (to the corporation, to the country) is not necessarily a big concern for those who are temporarily calling the shots at any given corporation.
- tn13 10y ago
  Would like to know how many instances have you seen where the home country got millions in this fashion.
wbl 10y ago
Maybe not. Maybe I want to work in the US for a few years, and then decide to go back to Europe/elsewhere. The employer tie is much worse, but has been changed.
- Glyptodon 10y ago
  Giving the option for permanent residency does not prevent anyone from returning to wherever they came from if they so desire.
pkaye 10y ago
How does this work in other countries btw? Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease?
- throwaw181ay 10y ago
  A lot of EU countries have programs that do not tie the work visa with a specific job, at least for engineers. On the top of my head, Portugal,Sweden,Germany and Belgium do and France with implement some form of "tech visa" like that. Canada does too AFAIK. I think it's fair. "H1-B" should be paid as much as their local equivalent and shouldn't fear being fired.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  I don't know the process, but 2 of my (American) coworkers recently left my company (in the US) to work for companies in Europe. Didn't seem at all hard to get to work there. Don't know about permanent residency, though.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  It depends on the country. It ranges from much easier (compared to the other way around) to quite hard. There may be quotas but no lottery involved though.
- cr1895 10y ago
  >Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease Nothing is easy, especially when it comes to moving countries. I can offer insight on the Netherlands specifically. Other EU countries might have similar systems in place, though each is different. There are generally three options for an American to move to the Netherlands for work: 1) get a highly-skilled job outright with a Dutch company that fulfills certain criteria in a position which cannot be filled locally. Not all companies are eligible to hire highly-skilled migrants from abroad (they have to apply to do so, and there are considerable costs involved). There are some nice tax perks to this (see 30% ruling). 2) start your own business with relatively small investment capital (<5000eur) and gain residence through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT) 3) get a Master's degree from a Dutch university, after which you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for one year, then you'll receive a highly-skilled migrant work visa The above provide a path to a renewable residence permit for highly-skilled migrants. Typically you'll start working with a temporary 1-yr contract which, assuming things go well, will be extended for another year. After 2 years of temporary contracts and if the company still wants to keep you they'll give you an indefinite contract. After this, you'll next receive a highly-skilled migrant visa valid for 5 years. An American is eligible for permanent residence after having lived uninteruppted in the Netherlands for 5 years and after passing an integration test. The integration test requires that you speak Dutch, though honestly this is not so difficult (it's at an A1 level and the tests are fairly basic; they also test your ability to function in the Dutch job market and society which is a bit silly to ask of a highly-skilled migrant who's already successfully lived there for 5 years). I'm sort of in the process of gaining permanent residence. I have the time, the degree, the job, and most of the Dutch; it's only a matter of passing the test and submitting the paperwork. But since I have a 5-yr permit and permanent job contract already I'm not in a major rush. edit: I feel like it's important to point out that the highly-skilled migrant permit is obtained for you on behalf of your employer, however it is not tied to that employer. You're free to find other work elsewhere without any retribution.
hocuspocus 10y ago
> There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking. Note that it isn't a flaw in the visa, but rather in the green card application process. A European citizen on a dual-intent/immigrant visa will be able to get permanent residency within 2 years. Not true for Indians, Chinese, ... no matter their visa.
tn13 10y ago
Not to mention getting rid of the nonsensical anti-asian bias in the GC process. It is not really fault of Indians and Chinese that they are not trying to enter USA as refugees and instead coming as well educated special skilled individuals. The 9 year waiting period is one of the worst kind of discrimination.

virmundi 10y ago

What many policy makers and C-levels don't understand, is once freed to their home country, the H1's now have process knowledge that they, and their peers, lacked. They know how your company works. They can extend that model in their home space to come after you. All of those processes that cost millions to form are now "free" in a low cost country.

dsl 10y ago
...and they often leave with source code. (I've personally helped 3 companies deal with that very issue in the last year)
- ireadfaces 10y ago
  I love to take source code away. It's fun.
mistermann 10y ago
I very much doubt they don't understand this, it's not exactly rocket science. Boosting earnings QoQ or YoY to pop the share price can easily result in many millions of immediate payout in stock options, what happens in the longer term (to the corporation, to the country) is not necessarily a big concern for those who are temporarily calling the shots at any given corporation.
tn13 10y ago
Would like to know how many instances have you seen where the home country got millions in this fashion.

wbl 10y ago

Maybe not. Maybe I want to work in the US for a few years, and then decide to go back to Europe/elsewhere. The employer tie is much worse, but has been changed.

Glyptodon 10y ago
Giving the option for permanent residency does not prevent anyone from returning to wherever they came from if they so desire.

pkaye 10y ago

How does this work in other countries btw? Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease?

throwaw181ay 10y ago
A lot of EU countries have programs that do not tie the work visa with a specific job, at least for engineers. On the top of my head, Portugal,Sweden,Germany and Belgium do and France with implement some form of "tech visa" like that. Canada does too AFAIK. I think it's fair. "H1-B" should be paid as much as their local equivalent and shouldn't fear being fired.
BeetleB 10y ago
I don't know the process, but 2 of my (American) coworkers recently left my company (in the US) to work for companies in Europe. Didn't seem at all hard to get to work there. Don't know about permanent residency, though.
hocuspocus 10y ago
It depends on the country. It ranges from much easier (compared to the other way around) to quite hard. There may be quotas but no lottery involved though.
cr1895 10y ago
>Can an american get a work visa and get permanent residency in EU countries with ease Nothing is easy, especially when it comes to moving countries. I can offer insight on the Netherlands specifically. Other EU countries might have similar systems in place, though each is different. There are generally three options for an American to move to the Netherlands for work: 1) get a highly-skilled job outright with a Dutch company that fulfills certain criteria in a position which cannot be filled locally. Not all companies are eligible to hire highly-skilled migrants from abroad (they have to apply to do so, and there are considerable costs involved). There are some nice tax perks to this (see 30% ruling). 2) start your own business with relatively small investment capital (<5000eur) and gain residence through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT) 3) get a Master's degree from a Dutch university, after which you'll have full access to the Dutch job market for one year, then you'll receive a highly-skilled migrant work visa The above provide a path to a renewable residence permit for highly-skilled migrants. Typically you'll start working with a temporary 1-yr contract which, assuming things go well, will be extended for another year. After 2 years of temporary contracts and if the company still wants to keep you they'll give you an indefinite contract. After this, you'll next receive a highly-skilled migrant visa valid for 5 years. An American is eligible for permanent residence after having lived uninteruppted in the Netherlands for 5 years and after passing an integration test. The integration test requires that you speak Dutch, though honestly this is not so difficult (it's at an A1 level and the tests are fairly basic; they also test your ability to function in the Dutch job market and society which is a bit silly to ask of a highly-skilled migrant who's already successfully lived there for 5 years). I'm sort of in the process of gaining permanent residence. I have the time, the degree, the job, and most of the Dutch; it's only a matter of passing the test and submitting the paperwork. But since I have a 5-yr permit and permanent job contract already I'm not in a major rush. edit: I feel like it's important to point out that the highly-skilled migrant permit is obtained for you on behalf of your employer, however it is not tied to that employer. You're free to find other work elsewhere without any retribution.

hocuspocus 10y ago

> There shouldn't be a work visa that doesn't lead to a green card/permanent residency within two years. Anything less is merely legalized human trafficking. Note that it isn't a flaw in the visa, but rather in the green card application process. A European citizen on a dual-intent/immigrant visa will be able to get permanent residency within 2 years. Not true for Indians, Chinese, ... no matter their visa.

tn13 10y ago

Not to mention getting rid of the nonsensical anti-asian bias in the GC process. It is not really fault of Indians and Chinese that they are not trying to enter USA as refugees and instead coming as well educated special skilled individuals. The 9 year waiting period is one of the worst kind of discrimination.