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Because that's not what 'actually happened'. A single young man with a sordid past and complicated relationship with the gay community claimed allegiance to Is

Because that's not what 'actually happened'. A single young man with a sordid past and complicated relationship with the gay community claimed allegiance to Islamists immediately prior to massacring dozens of people at a gay-centric dance club.

jazzyk 10y ago
According to Wikipedia, no credible evidence for the "self-hating, closeted gay" narrative has been found by the FBI. The killer was upset about the US presence in Iraq/Syria and had been preparing the attack for some time, possibly helped by his wife (arrested and charged with helping him). Both were Muslims. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shootin... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/us/politics/noor-salman-arrested-orlando-shooting-omar-mateen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/us/politics/noor-salman-a...
- derrickdirge 10y ago
  But of course it's not that simple. From the wiki: >Mateen's ex-wife, however, claimed that his father called him gay while in her presence. Speaking on her behalf, her current fiancé said that she, his family, and others believed he was gay, and that "the FBI asked her not to tell this to the American media"
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    Because conservative, old Muslim men never call anyone "gay", right? For wearing a trendy piece of clothing, for example? My male friend has been called "gay" a few times because he likes Broadway shows. You can believe in any hearsay you want, but at the end of the day, this was a US-hating, Muslim guy/couple, killing LGBT people (for whom many Muslims have special hatred, and like to throw them off the roofs).
    - derrickdirge 10y ago
      My point is that we should be cautious about assuming that his motives were uncomplicated. For what it's worth, the FBI also found no evidence linking him to ISIL. We can't possibly know what he felt in his heart, but making policy decisions based on the assumption that we can is reckless and only serves to further smooth over any of hint of subtlety left in American public discourse.
      - nailer 10y ago
        So there's no evidence connecting him to Isil (which there generally isn't: Isil spread messages to sympathetic people telling them to do things - ask employees of one well known company who have an unlisted London office because someone wants to slit their throats). Recapping: - The FBI has investigated and found no links that he was a patron of the club. - He has, for a fact, murdered people in the name of Islam. We can't know what he felt in his heart, but also we don't have any reason to believe his stated motives aren't his actual ones. It an uncomfortable fact, but a large percentage of Muslims say they believe in Sharia which holds some pretty awful beliefs about gay people (and women, and others).
        derrickdirge 10y ago
        All I'm saying is that it's impossible to know the extent to which those beliefs contributed to his actions. There are millions of people of all religions, including Islam, who aren't too keen on gay people. But the vast majority have never killed anyone. Incidentally, his actual 'stated motives' were "[his] people... getting killed" in air strikes in general, and the death of Abu Waheeb in particular.

jazzyk 10y ago

According to Wikipedia, no credible evidence for the "self-hating, closeted gay" narrative has been found by the FBI. The killer was upset about the US presence in Iraq/Syria and had been preparing the attack for some time, possibly helped by his wife (arrested and charged with helping him). Both were Muslims. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shootin... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/us/politics/noor-salman-arrested-orlando-shooting-omar-mateen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/us/politics/noor-salman-a...

derrickdirge 10y ago
But of course it's not that simple. From the wiki: >Mateen's ex-wife, however, claimed that his father called him gay while in her presence. Speaking on her behalf, her current fiancé said that she, his family, and others believed he was gay, and that "the FBI asked her not to tell this to the American media"
- jazzyk 10y ago
  Because conservative, old Muslim men never call anyone "gay", right? For wearing a trendy piece of clothing, for example? My male friend has been called "gay" a few times because he likes Broadway shows. You can believe in any hearsay you want, but at the end of the day, this was a US-hating, Muslim guy/couple, killing LGBT people (for whom many Muslims have special hatred, and like to throw them off the roofs).
  - derrickdirge 10y ago
    My point is that we should be cautious about assuming that his motives were uncomplicated. For what it's worth, the FBI also found no evidence linking him to ISIL. We can't possibly know what he felt in his heart, but making policy decisions based on the assumption that we can is reckless and only serves to further smooth over any of hint of subtlety left in American public discourse.
    - nailer 10y ago
      So there's no evidence connecting him to Isil (which there generally isn't: Isil spread messages to sympathetic people telling them to do things - ask employees of one well known company who have an unlisted London office because someone wants to slit their throats). Recapping: - The FBI has investigated and found no links that he was a patron of the club. - He has, for a fact, murdered people in the name of Islam. We can't know what he felt in his heart, but also we don't have any reason to believe his stated motives aren't his actual ones. It an uncomfortable fact, but a large percentage of Muslims say they believe in Sharia which holds some pretty awful beliefs about gay people (and women, and others).
      - derrickdirge 10y ago
        All I'm saying is that it's impossible to know the extent to which those beliefs contributed to his actions. There are millions of people of all religions, including Islam, who aren't too keen on gay people. But the vast majority have never killed anyone. Incidentally, his actual 'stated motives' were "[his] people... getting killed" in air strikes in general, and the death of Abu Waheeb in particular.