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I like it because it includes the implication that you're doing it to ingratiate yourself with people who are already your allies, and passing it off as bravery

I like it because it includes the implication that you're doing it to ingratiate yourself with people who are already your allies, and passing it off as bravery. That's more specific than insincere.

mikeash 10y ago
My point isn't that it's redundant, but that's it's an unproductive thing to say. If you want to insult someone, you might as well come out and use some curse words. Don't hide behind scientific language.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Banned as an accusation against someone you're arguing against as ad hominem well poisoning? Yes. Otherwise, no.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    That's the only way I've ever seen it used.
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      I was listening to a commentator a few days ago mention how frequently discussions of identity politics are diverted from practical economic issues associated with identity to the virtue of the participants in the conversation. ----- Person A: I'm facing discrimination in my industry. Person B: I don't see color. Racists are bad. Person A: Too bad I don't work for you. How can I deal with what is happening? Person B: There's going to be more of this with Trump. I hate Trump. ----- I related to this dynamic a lot. edit: it was an interview of Asad Haider (editor of viewpointmag.com) on the last Behind The News (Doug Henwood's show) episode.
Inconel 10y ago
Even the term bravery can be contentious. For example some might call a multibillionaire taking a few hours from his Saturday to join a protest at SFO an act of bravery. Others might find it a nice thing to do, but ultimately insulting to conflate with bravery. But this is HN after all, it's a relatively self selecting and privileged bubble. One man's bravery is another man's minor act of inconvenience.
jbooth 10y ago
It's funny, because if you express opposition to racism and someone accuses you of virtue signalling, they're basically saying "nobody believes that anti-racist stuff, you're just saying it to look good". Very illuminating.
- Inconel 10y ago
  I'm not sure how illuminating that really is. I mean I'm sure that is what some people think when accusing others of virtue signalling, but I'm fairly certain others are basically saying "hey look, here's another privileged wealthy white tech guy who mostly lives in neighborhoods filled with similar people, and went to school with similar people, and runs entire companies filled with similar people, and is mostly friends with similar people, and benefits enormously from a system that affords him privilege while doing very little to confront those aspects of societal privilege, but yeah, look how totally not racist he is since he sent out a tweet saying racism is bad". I also take issue with the idea that "expressing opposition to racism" really counts as "opposition". Talk is cheap, particularly if you're rich and privileged, and even more so if you're rich, privileged, and your talk is uncontroversial. Opposing racism requires every day actions, some of them difficult or uncomfortable, not self congratulatory tweets and blog posts. And especially not self congratulatory tweets and blog posts from CEOs or venture capitalists.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

I like it because it includes the implication that you're doing it to ingratiate yourself with people who are already your allies, and passing it off as bravery. That's more specific than insincere.

mikeash 10y ago

My point isn't that it's redundant, but that's it's an unproductive thing to say. If you want to insult someone, you might as well come out and use some curse words. Don't hide behind scientific language.

pessimizer 10y ago
Banned as an accusation against someone you're arguing against as ad hominem well poisoning? Yes. Otherwise, no.
- mikeash 10y ago
  That's the only way I've ever seen it used.
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    I was listening to a commentator a few days ago mention how frequently discussions of identity politics are diverted from practical economic issues associated with identity to the virtue of the participants in the conversation. ----- Person A: I'm facing discrimination in my industry. Person B: I don't see color. Racists are bad. Person A: Too bad I don't work for you. How can I deal with what is happening? Person B: There's going to be more of this with Trump. I hate Trump. ----- I related to this dynamic a lot. edit: it was an interview of Asad Haider (editor of viewpointmag.com) on the last Behind The News (Doug Henwood's show) episode.

Inconel 10y ago

Even the term bravery can be contentious. For example some might call a multibillionaire taking a few hours from his Saturday to join a protest at SFO an act of bravery. Others might find it a nice thing to do, but ultimately insulting to conflate with bravery. But this is HN after all, it's a relatively self selecting and privileged bubble. One man's bravery is another man's minor act of inconvenience.

jbooth 10y ago

It's funny, because if you express opposition to racism and someone accuses you of virtue signalling, they're basically saying "nobody believes that anti-racist stuff, you're just saying it to look good". Very illuminating.

Inconel 10y ago
I'm not sure how illuminating that really is. I mean I'm sure that is what some people think when accusing others of virtue signalling, but I'm fairly certain others are basically saying "hey look, here's another privileged wealthy white tech guy who mostly lives in neighborhoods filled with similar people, and went to school with similar people, and runs entire companies filled with similar people, and is mostly friends with similar people, and benefits enormously from a system that affords him privilege while doing very little to confront those aspects of societal privilege, but yeah, look how totally not racist he is since he sent out a tweet saying racism is bad". I also take issue with the idea that "expressing opposition to racism" really counts as "opposition". Talk is cheap, particularly if you're rich and privileged, and even more so if you're rich, privileged, and your talk is uncontroversial. Opposing racism requires every day actions, some of them difficult or uncomfortable, not self congratulatory tweets and blog posts. And especially not self congratulatory tweets and blog posts from CEOs or venture capitalists.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]