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I love HN. Trump hating on Iranians and Mexicans. HN: "I hate Trump, he's so mean to immigrants. And avocado prices will go up! ::angry face:: Trump hating o

I love HN. Trump hating on Iranians and Mexicans. HN: "I hate Trump, he's so mean to immigrants. And avocado prices will go up! ::angry face:: Trump hating on Indians who took our jobs! HN: "Protectionism for me too? ::swoons::"

d--b 10y ago
So true!
johnward 10y ago
It's almost like there are different people here with different opinions.
erelde 10y ago
Not necessarily the same people commenting on the first and the second. That's the issue with "The Reddit/HN/Gawker/*chan/Twitter's community is toxic".
- superpope99 10y ago
  This is a classic logical fallacy I see too often. It's like mentally creating a Venn diagram of "People who said a" and "People who said b" and then just assuming that the two circles basically entirely overlap - without any basis. I feel like it's somehow a variation on a straw man argument, but I can't work out if that's a good enough analog. Would be interested to know if anyone knows of a more formal name for it.
  - 0xfeba 10y ago
    False equivalence? Existential Fallacy? Or some hybrid of the two.
ihsw 10y ago
There's nothing wrong with this. It was always about protecting our interests.
freehunter 10y ago
Well that's not even remotely the same thing. Trump hating on Iranians for no good reason. Trump hating on Mexicans who are here legally or aren't even in the country (the whole "Mexicans are rapists, but I'm sure there's some good ones" comment). Versus Trump changing immigration policy to balance foreign and domestic workers, where it's heavily tipped to foreign workers right now. He's not building a wall to keep out Indians, he's not arresting them at airports when they have a green card, his plan is to just not issue as many visas, and put tighter restrictions on the people he gives visas to. That's not "hating on" anyone. There are lots of reasons to oppose Trump, but this isn't one of them. The H1B visa system could use some work, and it's getting that work.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  It's heavily tipped to foreign workers? For a US worker to find a job, they need to find a willing employer. For a foreign worker, they need to: 0) Find a willing employer. 1) Get lucky. For 2017, there were 236,000 applications for 65,000 H1Bs (about a 25% success rate). 2) Prove that an American worker isn't available to do the job. 3) Wait > 8 months to start the job (applications happen in April 2016 for 2017 employment). Yeah, things are totally tipped in favor of foreign workers. I'm constantly wondering if I should give up my US citizenship to gain these advantages.
  - 0xcafecafe 10y ago
    Not to mention the exhorbitant wait times to get permanent residency for Indians(and Chinese). As things stand, with an approved petition for 2011 or later it will be well over a decade before they can get a green card.
  - cableshaft 10y ago
    Keep in mind, a large amount of those applications are pushed by outsourcing companies, that are gaming the system. "Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker, but companies can submit an unlimited number of applications for their employees, so global outsourcing giants can, and do, submit many requests." And one third of all approved H1Bs are for those outsourcing firms. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcin... The spammed requests by these firms make it more difficult for foreign workers to get through this process, too, unless they work for these outsourcing firms.
hx87 10y ago
Not hating on Indians per se, but hating on the wage-depressing way they are hired. H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Now if they could job-hop like the rest of us, their presence wouldn't depress wages so much, and we'll all be better off. In other words, we want more freedom for them, not less, nor the crippleware BS that is the current H1B system. Same goes for undocumented Mexicans. If they could organize and switch jobs without fear of deportation, their presence wouldn't depress manual labor wages nearly as much.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Sure you do: you can find a new employer willing to spend a couple of thousand (i.e. a lot less than recruiting costs) on transferring the visa. There is no barrier to a Mexican illegal immigrant changing jobs whatsoever. I'm all in favor of making it easier for people to come to the US and productively work for willing employers (whether high skilled Indians or low skilled Mexicans). But it's pretty clear that this isn't what Trump is proposing.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    Except whenever you change employers your green-card application resets. For people born in India, green cards applications are currently being processed from July 2005. That means someone from India who is trying to become a permanent resident is stuck at the same company for over a decade.
    - mavelikara 10y ago
      > Except whenever you change employers your green-card application resets. The green card application has to be redone again, but the place in line will be intact in most cases. Still, you are right that the backlog can take over a decade.
- mavelikara 10y ago
  Please support H.R.392 [1] which proposes to remove the long green card backlogs which causes the wage depression you mention. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/392/text?r=3 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/392/...
ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
Yeah, because HN is one person...

d--b 10y ago

So true!

johnward 10y ago

It's almost like there are different people here with different opinions.

erelde 10y ago

Not necessarily the same people commenting on the first and the second. That's the issue with "The Reddit/HN/Gawker/*chan/Twitter's community is toxic".

superpope99 10y ago
This is a classic logical fallacy I see too often. It's like mentally creating a Venn diagram of "People who said a" and "People who said b" and then just assuming that the two circles basically entirely overlap - without any basis. I feel like it's somehow a variation on a straw man argument, but I can't work out if that's a good enough analog. Would be interested to know if anyone knows of a more formal name for it.
- 0xfeba 10y ago
  False equivalence? Existential Fallacy? Or some hybrid of the two.

ihsw 10y ago

There's nothing wrong with this. It was always about protecting our interests.

freehunter 10y ago

Well that's not even remotely the same thing. Trump hating on Iranians for no good reason. Trump hating on Mexicans who are here legally or aren't even in the country (the whole "Mexicans are rapists, but I'm sure there's some good ones" comment). Versus Trump changing immigration policy to balance foreign and domestic workers, where it's heavily tipped to foreign workers right now. He's not building a wall to keep out Indians, he's not arresting them at airports when they have a green card, his plan is to just not issue as many visas, and put tighter restrictions on the people he gives visas to. That's not "hating on" anyone. There are lots of reasons to oppose Trump, but this isn't one of them. The H1B visa system could use some work, and it's getting that work.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
It's heavily tipped to foreign workers? For a US worker to find a job, they need to find a willing employer. For a foreign worker, they need to: 0) Find a willing employer. 1) Get lucky. For 2017, there were 236,000 applications for 65,000 H1Bs (about a 25% success rate). 2) Prove that an American worker isn't available to do the job. 3) Wait > 8 months to start the job (applications happen in April 2016 for 2017 employment). Yeah, things are totally tipped in favor of foreign workers. I'm constantly wondering if I should give up my US citizenship to gain these advantages.
- 0xcafecafe 10y ago
  Not to mention the exhorbitant wait times to get permanent residency for Indians(and Chinese). As things stand, with an approved petition for 2011 or later it will be well over a decade before they can get a green card.
- cableshaft 10y ago
  Keep in mind, a large amount of those applications are pushed by outsourcing companies, that are gaming the system. "Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker, but companies can submit an unlimited number of applications for their employees, so global outsourcing giants can, and do, submit many requests." And one third of all approved H1Bs are for those outsourcing firms. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcin... The spammed requests by these firms make it more difficult for foreign workers to get through this process, too, unless they work for these outsourcing firms.

hx87 10y ago

Not hating on Indians per se, but hating on the wage-depressing way they are hired. H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Now if they could job-hop like the rest of us, their presence wouldn't depress wages so much, and we'll all be better off. In other words, we want more freedom for them, not less, nor the crippleware BS that is the current H1B system. Same goes for undocumented Mexicans. If they could organize and switch jobs without fear of deportation, their presence wouldn't depress manual labor wages nearly as much.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
H1B visas tie you to your employer, so you have no leverage to increase your wages. Sure you do: you can find a new employer willing to spend a couple of thousand (i.e. a lot less than recruiting costs) on transferring the visa. There is no barrier to a Mexican illegal immigrant changing jobs whatsoever. I'm all in favor of making it easier for people to come to the US and productively work for willing employers (whether high skilled Indians or low skilled Mexicans). But it's pretty clear that this isn't what Trump is proposing.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  Except whenever you change employers your green-card application resets. For people born in India, green cards applications are currently being processed from July 2005. That means someone from India who is trying to become a permanent resident is stuck at the same company for over a decade.
  - mavelikara 10y ago
    > Except whenever you change employers your green-card application resets. The green card application has to be redone again, but the place in line will be intact in most cases. Still, you are right that the backlog can take over a decade.
mavelikara 10y ago
Please support H.R.392 [1] which proposes to remove the long green card backlogs which causes the wage depression you mention. [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/392/text?r=3 https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/392/...

ConfuciusSay02 10y ago

Yeah, because HN is one person...