4 ms·

This is just "Americans are lazy and entitled" written differently. We see similar arguments in the agriculture sector, where a different price dynamic exists.

by sidlls 10y ago

This is just "Americans are lazy and entitled" written differently. We see similar arguments in the agriculture sector, where a different price dynamic exists. The difference is in the world of tech companies can actually afford to pay more because there isn't a horde of Americans who want the tech equivalent of dirt-cheap food keeping prices down. Americans actually have a very strong affinity for authority. Most will put up with quite a bit especially for something they perceive as high paying.

dzhiurgis 10y ago
First part still stands though. Tech companies might have money to pay, but not the businesses who consulting companies serve. Regarding lazy and entitled - I am envious when poverty there is considered eating fast food and using safe, air conditioned bus. If you are taking these pragmatic decisions at least have some self-deprecating humour with it.
- sidlls 10y ago
  That you think fast food is much different from no food or that the buses the impoverished here ride are "safe" (or always air conditioned, for that matter) leads me to believe you haven't experienced poverty in America. I have. It really tweaks me when people compare poverty in America favorably to poverty elsewhere.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Why do you think one needs to experience poverty to make accurate claims about it? Like it or not, the statistics show that poor Americans don't work very much, they are well fed, and they have living conditions that are not drastically different from the rich and are much better than most of the world. Feel free to try and prove me wrong. But I'm willing to gamble that all you've got is anecdotes, no stats.
    - sidlls 10y ago
      Why do you think I think that? You haven't offered an argument to "prove wrong." You've offered assertions and antagonism. If your intent is to invite discussion, it isn't a very good attempt.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        >> the statistics show that poor Americans don't work very much, they are well fed, and they have living conditions that are not drastically different from the rich > You haven't offered an argument to "prove wrong." Prove the assertion wrong then. You're the one who atagonised originally: > leads me to believe you haven't experienced poverty in America
    - pnutjam 10y ago
      feel free to links some of those statistics.
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        I've done so many times. Here's a good summary. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381938#12382336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381938#12382336
        sidlls 10y ago
        And every time you're refuted as presenting an overly simplistic view, mistaking correlation for causation, and a having a host of other categorical and logical errors. What you do when you link like that is make a "shotgun bullet-point argument:" you're presenting a set of loose, possibly related facts as though they're all mutually reinforcing studies leading to the same conclusions. There's no "there" there.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > That you think fast food is much different from no food ?
wmccullough 10y ago
You may not like the argument that "proud" Americans wouldn't put up with the same thing, but it's true. Not liking the statement doesn't make reality less real. I see this day in and day out in tech companies with my own eyes. Long after everyone else has gone home, the contractors are working and dealing with last minute client changes to the point where they are exhausted. Meanwhile, their onshore counterparts make statements like, "fuck these clients for asking for something so crazy, you can bet your ass I'm not working late for this!" Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" While the contracts are getting much less and even then, losing a cut of their own money to a contracting house. This is a two sided coin where American companies have abused this and American workers see themselves as I've heard so many times: "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" Our country has become the equivalent of a second generation family where the kids are all spoiled and the parents threaten to give our toys away to the poor kids down the street every other week.
- yomly 10y ago
  >Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" The danger of criticising this behaviour is that it is putting the onus on the employee to earn their money rather than the employer to pay their employees. Doing so is actually anti-employee, and given that most of us are employees - self-destructive. While I fully agree people should have some self agency to earn their wage, it is naive to think companies don't hold most the power in the employee-employer dynamic wrt salaries. When they can't force competition amongst applicants to drive down salaries, they simply move their operations to foreign countries to use cheaper migrant work. The migrants are happy to work hard because they're seeing an effective pay-rise so it's a win for them. It's also a win for the employer as they're paying less for work. So the loser here is the domestic worker. On a personal level, how would you feel if I told you to work harder at a pay cut? In most professions, this has happened - wage inflation has not kept up with the economy in both the US and UK so people have seen their effective quality of life eroded over the past 20-30 years. Governments exist to protect their citizens from precisely this kind of exploitation by business. But protectionism and regulation have become dirty words nowadays...
  - sidlls 10y ago
koolba 10y ago
> Americans actually have a very strong affinity for authority. Most will put up with quite a bit especially for something they perceive as high paying. Americans will put up with it even when they're not being paid. Probably more so. The security theater of the TSA is a perfect example of that.
Chris2048 10y ago
> This is just "Americans are lazy and entitled" written differently No it isn't. It's not "lazy" to insist on working contracted hours. Americans are entitled to choose their workplace, and leave if it's bullshit; Having the economic success to be able to do this is another thing - that used to be handled through unions. > We see similar arguments in the agriculture sector It not the same argument, but in any case; How many agricultural workers have the insurance of going off and founding a startup?
- supercanuck 10y ago
  I guarantee you, the Infosys Support Analysts at my company do not have the option of creating a "startup" any more than a plantation worker can start a plantation.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...
    - supercanuck 10y ago
      because the vast majority are doing support tickets stuck in a support center at a company like South California Edison, Verizon or Dow Chemical working with Enterprise Software like Oracle, Informatica, SAP etc. They are four to a room in an apartment in Minnesota where they send 3/4 of their paycheck back to India to support their family. In your mind, you are thinking of the 10-15% working in Silicon Valley as coders with people skills.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        And if wages increased? I'm going to disregard those with families, it's hard for anyone to compete with dependents. Also, are you talking about Americans, or workers on visas? It sounds like the latter, but I was talking about the former, i.e. American IT workers can keep wages/conditions up by choosing startups if things start to drop, in a way I doubt agriculture workers could.

by sidlls 10y ago

dzhiurgis 10y ago

First part still stands though. Tech companies might have money to pay, but not the businesses who consulting companies serve. Regarding lazy and entitled - I am envious when poverty there is considered eating fast food and using safe, air conditioned bus. If you are taking these pragmatic decisions at least have some self-deprecating humour with it.

sidlls 10y ago
That you think fast food is much different from no food or that the buses the impoverished here ride are "safe" (or always air conditioned, for that matter) leads me to believe you haven't experienced poverty in America. I have. It really tweaks me when people compare poverty in America favorably to poverty elsewhere.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Why do you think one needs to experience poverty to make accurate claims about it? Like it or not, the statistics show that poor Americans don't work very much, they are well fed, and they have living conditions that are not drastically different from the rich and are much better than most of the world. Feel free to try and prove me wrong. But I'm willing to gamble that all you've got is anecdotes, no stats.
  - sidlls 10y ago
    Why do you think I think that? You haven't offered an argument to "prove wrong." You've offered assertions and antagonism. If your intent is to invite discussion, it isn't a very good attempt.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      >> the statistics show that poor Americans don't work very much, they are well fed, and they have living conditions that are not drastically different from the rich > You haven't offered an argument to "prove wrong." Prove the assertion wrong then. You're the one who atagonised originally: > leads me to believe you haven't experienced poverty in America
  - pnutjam 10y ago
    feel free to links some of those statistics.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I've done so many times. Here's a good summary. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381938#12382336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381938#12382336
      - sidlls 10y ago
        And every time you're refuted as presenting an overly simplistic view, mistaking correlation for causation, and a having a host of other categorical and logical errors. What you do when you link like that is make a "shotgun bullet-point argument:" you're presenting a set of loose, possibly related facts as though they're all mutually reinforcing studies leading to the same conclusions. There's no "there" there.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > That you think fast food is much different from no food ?

wmccullough 10y ago

You may not like the argument that "proud" Americans wouldn't put up with the same thing, but it's true. Not liking the statement doesn't make reality less real. I see this day in and day out in tech companies with my own eyes. Long after everyone else has gone home, the contractors are working and dealing with last minute client changes to the point where they are exhausted. Meanwhile, their onshore counterparts make statements like, "fuck these clients for asking for something so crazy, you can bet your ass I'm not working late for this!" Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" While the contracts are getting much less and even then, losing a cut of their own money to a contracting house. This is a two sided coin where American companies have abused this and American workers see themselves as I've heard so many times: "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" Our country has become the equivalent of a second generation family where the kids are all spoiled and the parents threaten to give our toys away to the poor kids down the street every other week.

yomly 10y ago
>Or the ever popular "I don't get paid enough for this!" The danger of criticising this behaviour is that it is putting the onus on the employee to earn their money rather than the employer to pay their employees. Doing so is actually anti-employee, and given that most of us are employees - self-destructive. While I fully agree people should have some self agency to earn their wage, it is naive to think companies don't hold most the power in the employee-employer dynamic wrt salaries. When they can't force competition amongst applicants to drive down salaries, they simply move their operations to foreign countries to use cheaper migrant work. The migrants are happy to work hard because they're seeing an effective pay-rise so it's a win for them. It's also a win for the employer as they're paying less for work. So the loser here is the domestic worker. On a personal level, how would you feel if I told you to work harder at a pay cut? In most professions, this has happened - wage inflation has not kept up with the economy in both the US and UK so people have seen their effective quality of life eroded over the past 20-30 years. Governments exist to protect their citizens from precisely this kind of exploitation by business. But protectionism and regulation have become dirty words nowadays...
- sidlls 10y ago

koolba 10y ago

> Americans actually have a very strong affinity for authority. Most will put up with quite a bit especially for something they perceive as high paying. Americans will put up with it even when they're not being paid. Probably more so. The security theater of the TSA is a perfect example of that.

Chris2048 10y ago

> This is just "Americans are lazy and entitled" written differently No it isn't. It's not "lazy" to insist on working contracted hours. Americans are entitled to choose their workplace, and leave if it's bullshit; Having the economic success to be able to do this is another thing - that used to be handled through unions. > We see similar arguments in the agriculture sector It not the same argument, but in any case; How many agricultural workers have the insurance of going off and founding a startup?

supercanuck 10y ago
I guarantee you, the Infosys Support Analysts at my company do not have the option of creating a "startup" any more than a plantation worker can start a plantation.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Why? lack of money? Maybe if wages increased...
  - supercanuck 10y ago
    because the vast majority are doing support tickets stuck in a support center at a company like South California Edison, Verizon or Dow Chemical working with Enterprise Software like Oracle, Informatica, SAP etc. They are four to a room in an apartment in Minnesota where they send 3/4 of their paycheck back to India to support their family. In your mind, you are thinking of the 10-15% working in Silicon Valley as coders with people skills.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      And if wages increased? I'm going to disregard those with families, it's hard for anyone to compete with dependents. Also, are you talking about Americans, or workers on visas? It sounds like the latter, but I was talking about the former, i.e. American IT workers can keep wages/conditions up by choosing startups if things start to drop, in a way I doubt agriculture workers could.