4 ms·

Why would it drive wages down?! It'd be the exact opposite, and is the reason that wages have been stagnant in STEM, and is the reason for the wage collusion sc

by anjc 10y ago

Why would it drive wages down?! It'd be the exact opposite, and is the reason that wages have been stagnant in STEM, and is the reason for the wage collusion scandal. Companies would have to increase their offers to attract talent from other companies. Or they would have to - as used to be the case everywhere - accept that talent is nurtured from within.

hocuspocus 10y ago
IT services aren't STEM. The wage collusion scandal happened at a time where yearly H-1B quotas were typically not met! (Edit: I'm wrong, they were met, but much more slowly than they are today, no lottery needed back then). Today there's roughly 4 times more applications than visas delivered through the lottery, and the wages in tech have never been so high. If you get screwed by your employer within the framework of labor laws, don't blame it on immigration.
- anjc 10y ago
  Would that not demonstrate the point then? You're saying wages aren't stagnant anymore, occurring at a time when the demand for workers has finally outstripped supply because not enough visas are issued. So don't blame it on immigration now, fine. But if issuances of visas increase then you're back in the <2012 situation of stagnant or decreasing wages due to the availability of cheaper workers. So can you then blame stagnant industry wages on immigration? Displacement of indigenous workers is also a major issue. By the way, I wasn't trying to "blame it on immigration", my ire is solely directed at corporate lobbying for public policy, given that their sole motivation is an increase of private profits regardless of the socioeconomic side-effects. It should not be allowed.
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    I think it demonstrates there's hardly any correlation between STEM wages and H-1B abuse. I'm all for fewer visas delivered to IT consulting firms, but I don't see not much of an intersection between this issue and stagnating wages in the tech industry. A reform of the H-1 would be nice but it should try to give a chance to small startups as well, not just hand over visas to the handful of companies that pay engineers over $250k. The current lottery is silly but at least it's unfair to everyone equally :)
threeseed 10y ago
Not sure what on earth you're expecting with STEM wages. Across the economy and in most countries wages have been stagnant and STEM is no exception. And don't forget that most IT projects are not mandatory. If wages rise significantly companies will just cut back on projects which means more unemployed talent and hence the wages will drop back. And there is no evidence that talent is better nurtured from within. It is just as beneficial for companies to have outsiders with unique experiences and viewpoints join.
- anjc 10y ago
  You'd expect wages to rise when it's in industries with supposed skills shortages, which necessitates major corporations lobbying government for more visas. If wages rose, companies couldn't just uniformly cut back on projects to keep their net profit the same in a hypercompetitive industry. Hence the wage collusion scandal, mentioned above.
- sheepmullet 10y ago
  > If wages rise significantly companies will just cut back on projects The more likely outcome is companies will adopt more efficient work practices. A slowly rising cost of labor fuels automation and increased value for society.

by anjc 10y ago

hocuspocus 10y ago

IT services aren't STEM. The wage collusion scandal happened at a time where yearly H-1B quotas were typically not met! (Edit: I'm wrong, they were met, but much more slowly than they are today, no lottery needed back then). Today there's roughly 4 times more applications than visas delivered through the lottery, and the wages in tech have never been so high. If you get screwed by your employer within the framework of labor laws, don't blame it on immigration.

anjc 10y ago
Would that not demonstrate the point then? You're saying wages aren't stagnant anymore, occurring at a time when the demand for workers has finally outstripped supply because not enough visas are issued. So don't blame it on immigration now, fine. But if issuances of visas increase then you're back in the <2012 situation of stagnant or decreasing wages due to the availability of cheaper workers. So can you then blame stagnant industry wages on immigration? Displacement of indigenous workers is also a major issue. By the way, I wasn't trying to "blame it on immigration", my ire is solely directed at corporate lobbying for public policy, given that their sole motivation is an increase of private profits regardless of the socioeconomic side-effects. It should not be allowed.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  I think it demonstrates there's hardly any correlation between STEM wages and H-1B abuse. I'm all for fewer visas delivered to IT consulting firms, but I don't see not much of an intersection between this issue and stagnating wages in the tech industry. A reform of the H-1 would be nice but it should try to give a chance to small startups as well, not just hand over visas to the handful of companies that pay engineers over $250k. The current lottery is silly but at least it's unfair to everyone equally :)

threeseed 10y ago

Not sure what on earth you're expecting with STEM wages. Across the economy and in most countries wages have been stagnant and STEM is no exception. And don't forget that most IT projects are not mandatory. If wages rise significantly companies will just cut back on projects which means more unemployed talent and hence the wages will drop back. And there is no evidence that talent is better nurtured from within. It is just as beneficial for companies to have outsiders with unique experiences and viewpoints join.

anjc 10y ago
You'd expect wages to rise when it's in industries with supposed skills shortages, which necessitates major corporations lobbying government for more visas. If wages rose, companies couldn't just uniformly cut back on projects to keep their net profit the same in a hypercompetitive industry. Hence the wage collusion scandal, mentioned above.
sheepmullet 10y ago
> If wages rise significantly companies will just cut back on projects The more likely outcome is companies will adopt more efficient work practices. A slowly rising cost of labor fuels automation and increased value for society.