7 ms·

Good for software developers. Not so much for large companies that want to drive down salaries through indentured servitude (H1B).

by kyrre 10y ago

threeseed 10y ago
No it's not that good for software developers or anyone really. Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. And so all that is going to happen is that companies are going to shift entire projects offshore or simply not take on as many projects. There does need to be reform. But frankly given the chaotic manner in which the Trump administration is crafting and implementing policy I don't think their approach to reform will be nuanced enough.
- Shivetya 10y ago
  I keep hearing this but personally have seen people passed over for H1B candidates when both were equally qualified. Even seen a few senior developer positions filled this way and in every case it was money. It feels good to tell ourselves we didn't hire locally because there wasn't enough talent when in many cases its just far easier to accept a recruiters suggestions where multiple recruiters simply undercut each other.
- MarkMc 10y ago
  > Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get local talent So it's not just a way to get regular software developers at a cheap price? OK let's raise the minimum salary requirement for H1B visas to $120k.
  - thomasahle 10y ago
    Or maybe something around the average software engineer pay scale of $80,000? What about student interns?
    - kilotaras 10y ago
      Student interns are not on H1B. It's J1 I believe.
      - Eyas 10y ago
        Exchange interns are J1, student interns in the US use their current F1 Visa with a CPT (Curricular Practical Training) permit for summer internship, or sometimes an OPT (Optional Practical Training) permit.
    - dingdongding 10y ago
      Student interns stay on whatever student visa they were on.
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    In France its quite straight forward to get a skilled worker visa -- just earn more than 3100 Euros per month (~1.5 * average earnings in France). Shouldn't be a problem for tech workers. (They are also introducing a 'tech startup visa' in the near future.)
    - flukus 10y ago
      1.5 * average earnings would still be below market for software developers.
      - angry_octet 10y ago
        True. There has been a significant increase in outsourcing in France in the last 5 years, but I don't know that it involves labour from lower wage countries. Obviously few Indians speak French, but there are many call centres outsourced to Senegal and other former French colonies. I think it is only a matter of time before ICT jobs migrate as well.
  - vthallam 10y ago
    Sure. A higher pay base sounds good, but how do you set the price to the location? 120K in SFO != 120K in Dallas(No state tax).
- DougBTX 10y ago
  > simply can't get enough local talent These things always need to be suffixed with "at price point x".
  - threeseed 10y ago
    Sure. It's a nuanced discussion. It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool. I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do ? And companies like Infosys are often playing in specific, less sexy spaces i.e. enterprise J2EE, DBAs, System Administration etc whilst newer generation of developers prefer Go, Rust, Javascript etc.
    - cousin_it 10y ago
      > I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do? Hire and teach, thus benefitting everyone.
    - imron 10y ago
      > What exactly are companies supposed to do ? Train their staff? How long really would it take a competent Java developer to get up to speed with WebObjects?
    - jack9 10y ago
      > Sure. It's a nuanced discussion. Nope. > It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool. Same thing. H1B just made them that way, with both metrics being in favor of the employer (except the vast majority of times the skillset is misrepresented). The astroturfing by someone who has no experience with how H1B is used, is telling.
- 0xfeba 10y ago
  > Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. I can only speak to my experience. At my current employer we have about 60-70% H1Bs in my department (development). Even more in QA. And they aren't particularly talented. After reviewing the public information though, they are getting paid 50% of what I am. So they are living with multiple other visa workers in one apartment, can barely afford repairs to their old cars, etc. It'd be great if the wages were more equalized. It's really not about talent at anywhere but the big 4. It's about money.
  - mavelikara 10y ago
    I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.
    - 0xfeba 10y ago
      Well, yes. I mean at the Big 4 (and really, this applies to any large, cutting-edge company: Twitter, Oracle, etc.) they do reach out of the US to find great talent for higher up positions. But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions. Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I figure these are the majority.
      - mavelikara 10y ago
        > But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions. No, in lower-level positions also they are paid the same as their colleagues who are citizens. During the hiring process, the immigration status is not get considered as a positive or negative qualifier. > Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I agree. > I figure these are the majority. This is possible, but I am not sure. It is true that many companies who get the most visas don't pay well. But the well-paying firms do not apply for lots of visas, and there are lots of them, leading to a long thin-tailed distribution. Also, many of these H-1B immigrants, once they get their green cards, go on to found successful startups increasing the size of the economic pie for everyone. One such person, Jyoti Bansal, sold his startup for $3.7B last week.
- ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
  >Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent This is the scam they want you to believe, but it's being abused to simply keep wages low. It's very easy to post fake job ads to make it seem like "you can't find someone" for the job, and there are plenty of lawyers who will help you get around those loopholes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

Good for software developers. Not so much for large companies that want to drive down salaries through indentured servitude (H1B).

by kyrre 10y ago

Good for software developers. Not so much for large companies that want to drive down salaries through indentured servitude (H1B).

threeseed 10y ago

No it's not that good for software developers or anyone really. Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. And so all that is going to happen is that companies are going to shift entire projects offshore or simply not take on as many projects. There does need to be reform. But frankly given the chaotic manner in which the Trump administration is crafting and implementing policy I don't think their approach to reform will be nuanced enough.

Shivetya 10y ago
I keep hearing this but personally have seen people passed over for H1B candidates when both were equally qualified. Even seen a few senior developer positions filled this way and in every case it was money. It feels good to tell ourselves we didn't hire locally because there wasn't enough talent when in many cases its just far easier to accept a recruiters suggestions where multiple recruiters simply undercut each other.
MarkMc 10y ago
> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get local talent So it's not just a way to get regular software developers at a cheap price? OK let's raise the minimum salary requirement for H1B visas to $120k.
- thomasahle 10y ago
  Or maybe something around the average software engineer pay scale of $80,000? What about student interns?
  - kilotaras 10y ago
    Student interns are not on H1B. It's J1 I believe.
    - Eyas 10y ago
      Exchange interns are J1, student interns in the US use their current F1 Visa with a CPT (Curricular Practical Training) permit for summer internship, or sometimes an OPT (Optional Practical Training) permit.
  - dingdongding 10y ago
    Student interns stay on whatever student visa they were on.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  In France its quite straight forward to get a skilled worker visa -- just earn more than 3100 Euros per month (~1.5 * average earnings in France). Shouldn't be a problem for tech workers. (They are also introducing a 'tech startup visa' in the near future.)
  - flukus 10y ago
    1.5 * average earnings would still be below market for software developers.
    - angry_octet 10y ago
      True. There has been a significant increase in outsourcing in France in the last 5 years, but I don't know that it involves labour from lower wage countries. Obviously few Indians speak French, but there are many call centres outsourced to Senegal and other former French colonies. I think it is only a matter of time before ICT jobs migrate as well.
- vthallam 10y ago
  Sure. A higher pay base sounds good, but how do you set the price to the location? 120K in SFO != 120K in Dallas(No state tax).
DougBTX 10y ago
> simply can't get enough local talent These things always need to be suffixed with "at price point x".
- threeseed 10y ago
  Sure. It's a nuanced discussion. It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool. I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do ? And companies like Infosys are often playing in specific, less sexy spaces i.e. enterprise J2EE, DBAs, System Administration etc whilst newer generation of developers prefer Go, Rust, Javascript etc.
  - cousin_it 10y ago
    > I still remember at Apple looking for WebObjects developers, finding none locally but dozens at Infosys. What exactly are companies supposed to do? Hire and teach, thus benefitting everyone.
  - imron 10y ago
    > What exactly are companies supposed to do ? Train their staff? How long really would it take a competent Java developer to get up to speed with WebObjects?
  - jack9 10y ago
    > Sure. It's a nuanced discussion. Nope. > It's not just about price. It's also about the various experience within the local talent pool. Same thing. H1B just made them that way, with both metrics being in favor of the employer (except the vast majority of times the skillset is misrepresented). The astroturfing by someone who has no experience with how H1B is used, is telling.
0xfeba 10y ago
> Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent. I can only speak to my experience. At my current employer we have about 60-70% H1Bs in my department (development). Even more in QA. And they aren't particularly talented. After reviewing the public information though, they are getting paid 50% of what I am. So they are living with multiple other visa workers in one apartment, can barely afford repairs to their old cars, etc. It'd be great if the wages were more equalized. It's really not about talent at anywhere but the big 4. It's about money.
- mavelikara 10y ago
  I am not working at the Big 4, am on H-1B, and am a hiring manager at an SV firm. When I hire an H-1B it is not about the money. Not challenging your experience, but pointing out that there are other possibilities also.
  - 0xfeba 10y ago
    Well, yes. I mean at the Big 4 (and really, this applies to any large, cutting-edge company: Twitter, Oracle, etc.) they do reach out of the US to find great talent for higher up positions. But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions. Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I figure these are the majority.
    - mavelikara 10y ago
      > But they also abuse the visa process for lower wages in lower positions. No, in lower-level positions also they are paid the same as their colleagues who are citizens. During the hiring process, the immigration status is not get considered as a positive or negative qualifier. > Lots of other companies without hype just want lower wage workers. I agree. > I figure these are the majority. This is possible, but I am not sure. It is true that many companies who get the most visas don't pay well. But the well-paying firms do not apply for lots of visas, and there are lots of them, leading to a long thin-tailed distribution. Also, many of these H-1B immigrants, once they get their green cards, go on to found successful startups increasing the size of the economic pie for everyone. One such person, Jyoti Bansal, sold his startup for $3.7B last week.
ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
>Many of those hired on H1B are doing roles for which they simply can't get enough local talent This is the scam they want you to believe, but it's being abused to simply keep wages low. It's very easy to post fake job ads to make it seem like "you can't find someone" for the job, and there are plenty of lawyers who will help you get around those loopholes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU