8 ms·

High-quality free state-run secular schools is one of the most important social achievements. In that schools a new generation can grow and learn while minimizi

by kartan 10y ago

High-quality free state-run secular schools is one of the most important social achievements. In that schools a new generation can grow and learn while minimizing radicalization. That new generation meets people from different cultures and religion since they are children and learn to accept the differences. This doesn't solves all problems, is not a silver bulled, but it improves society at large. I never understood why in the USA parents are allowed to radicalize their children out of society. Now I not just don't understand, but I see how dangerous is the situation.

gambiting 10y ago
I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. It just seems to me that Americans fear radical islam, while extremely radical Christianity grows right under their noses. I agree that free state-run secular schools are the way to go for modern society.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  > I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed Maybe we should just give kids to bullies to use as slaves? Probably auction them. (School was unarguably the worst period of my life, period. Bonus points for being blamed for that even later on, when affluent and successful) (Nobody ever blames bullies for being ones. They were "just kids". Now you - you do get blamed for having been bullied)
  - gambiting 10y ago
    It's like saying that someone broke your arm at school,so maybe we should break arms of every kid at school. This would never happen with home schooling! My point is - these two are unrelated. I say home schooling shouldn't be allowed, you say you were bullied at school. So is your point that everyone should be home schooled? I mean....bullies are usually bullies because they have shit parents who don't care about their kids. Do you think that home schooling is the answer here?
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      My point is: You should be able to shield your kids from that shit. You should be able to take them home. I don't care about bullies, and the fun thing is: most kids are bullies when push comes to shove.
      - new299 10y ago
        With respect, the problem is that you are both using gut reactions and anecdotal personal experience in order to determine the correct government policy. You could approach it from a civil liberties angle. But if you're really interested in what would be best for the population overall, perhaps try and cite some data? It took me 5 minutes of Google searching to find some interesting results...
        guard-of-terra 10y ago
        > for the population overall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om... It was definitely good for them to hold that child in the basement! As a population overall. Why would I care about "civil liberties" if they come at cost of ruining my life? And I know I'm not in any way an exception. I won't be around enjoying them, right? Do I look like a person who enjoys anything right now?
        new299 10y ago
        I think I wasn't clear on my meaning of "civil liberties". My meaning was this you can argue the following: That home schooling is a kind of basic human right. That there are some rights that a parent has to determine how their child is brought up. I'm not making that argument. But I would be interested in hearing it. And hearing a justification for it. Sounds like the Ursula K. Le Guin story is exploring individual versus group wellbeing. Thanks for posting it, I'll try and read it sometime. On a personal note: I do know that school can be a horrible place. It can also be a huge time wasting exercise. I intensely disliked it. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience there, schooling can be particularly distressing because it's an experience forced upon you at a young age. I hope you are able to work through your problems. A few weeks ago, at a local school (in Japan), a teacher beat a child in an after school class with a Kendo stick. The child was in hospital for a month. Very bad things happen at schools... But... these are all single data points. And I honestly want to understand the wider picture.
- _petronius 10y ago
  Fun fact: here in Germany, home schooling is illegal. I'm with you -- I think this is probably for the best. After all, how do you get kids to learn to socialize and integrate with society at large (regardless of their background), if they don't attend school and get out from under their parents? But this is also the only basis on which Germans can typically sucessfully claim asylum in the US, and have successfully in the past: the idea that they are fleeing "religious or political persecution" for not being allowed to keep their kids at home and teach them in an isolated environment.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    > socialize You mean, learn what it is to be ridiculed, assaulted and mocked? Awesome development indeed! How could I ever live without it!? I hope this happens to your kid.
  - bambax 10y ago
    I don't know much about Germany but if what you say is true, it's great for the country: they are able to successfully expatriate the crazies out -- hey, the crazies expatriate themselves, willfully! That's pure magic.
  - DougN7 10y ago
    It would be very interesting to go back to the 1940's and see what was being taught in the German schools. I'm in favor of public education - my three kids went to great public schools. But there is no perfect answer that works in all situations, all times and all places.
- new299 10y ago
  > I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-about-homeschooling/ http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For instance, one nationwide study analyzed data from 1,952 homeschooled students across the country and found that the students, on average, scored at the eightieth percentile or higher in every test category" "Several studies found no significant difference in the social skills of homeschooled and non-homeschooled students. Other studies found that homeschooled children score significantly higher on social development rating scales/questionnaires."
  - gambiting 10y ago
    The statement literally said "I believe that [...]". How can I provide data to back up that statement? I never reasoned that home schooling doesn't provide results, or that home schooled students do worse. I'm sure that with dedicated enough parents, it will provide results, and the students will do better or at least just as well! I still think that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm not sure how I can provide sources on that.
    - new299 10y ago
      Sorry, I should have said "could you provide data which shows your believe is valid/would make the world better?" Stating "I believe X" without any basis in reality doesn't seem like a useful contribution to any discussion really...
    - Inconel 10y ago
      I'm not nearly knowledgable enough about this subject to have a well informed opinion and my only exposure to homeschooled kids have turned out to be very well adjusted adults. Despite my own anecdotal experience, I'm certainly open to any data showing the overall negative effects that homeschooling may have on the societal level, but if you strongly believe it shouldn't be allowed, and yet this belief isn't based on any solid reasoning or evidence, isn't that somewhat similar to the kind of unfounded beliefs on display in the article?
- shshhdhs 10y ago
  There is nothing wrong with homeschooling. You're taking it out of proportion. I had difficulties with bullies for a few years, and my parents took me out of school to home school me. I benefited from this reset-- learned a lot about myself during that time (this is when I self-learned about tech & hacking). Homeschooling is a much safer environment to learn. State-run schools have drugs, violence, and often teachers who don't want to teach anymore.
- natewalck 10y ago
  I love how on HN you can make a statement like this with zero evidence and it doesn't get downvoted. If someone were to do the same for a tightly held HN friendly view, you would be crucified. Show me the numbers. What percent of homeschoolers are radical Christiana? Every home schooler I personally know is atheist/agnostic, well educated and want to make sure their kids get a solid education. (Because the public school system isn't delivering). If we are going on personal experience or assumptions, then my view is equally valid, if not more so as I have 5 data points :)
- thescribe 10y ago
  Would you be willing to elaborate on why the state should run schools? I am probably as extreme the other way as it is possible to be, but I'd like to understand where you are coming from.
noelwelsh 10y ago
I believe another important piece is the Fairness doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine) which forced news outlets in the US to present balanced news. Reagan killed this in 1987. It's made it much easier to live in a bubble. Fox News (and possibly most of the current US TV news; I'm not sure) couldn't exist if this doctrine was in place. The US has allowed many policies that has divided its people.
- intended 10y ago
  Wasn't there a famous case when Fox news said it wasn't news?
  - dagw 10y ago
    No, their argument was that not all show no Fox News where news. They where trying to make a distinction between news shows and editorial shows.
- vedranm 10y ago
  Find it funny that you mention Fox News as biased. I find the other big three (CNN, NBC, ABC) unreadable/unwatchable, while Fox News is kind of OK. I prefer RT to any of them, though.
barry-cotter 10y ago
High quality state run Party schools are one of the most important social achievements. In those schools a new generation can grow and learn in the care of the Party while minimising radicalisation. That new generation learns about how World Jewry threatens the Aryan race and how the German Nation and the Nazi Party will lead us to greatness. This doesn't solve all problems, is not a silver bullet, but it improves society at large. I don't understand why in France parents are not teaching their children about the threat of World Jewry. Now I not just don't understand, but I see how dangerous the situation is.
- kartan 10y ago
  School is NOT the only source of knowledge. Parents have the most important role in teaching values. The school has an important role in socialization. School teaches the children that they are part of society and that there is people out there that are different and that's a good thing. It is as bad that children ONLY learn from their parents that children ONLY learn from the state. Both radical situations go against a complete and balanced education. I'm against "the state should be the only educator", my mistake if I didn't expressed that correctly.
vedranm 10y ago
>High-quality free state-run secular schools is one of the most important social achievements. Libertarian here. I find this idea a joke, and I believe in it just as much as the person who made the comment with "High quality state run Party schools" does. State-run schools (secular or not) is a great way to make sure that there is only one point which you need to overtake (through elections or corruption) when you want to push your ideology through the school system. >I never understood why in the USA parents are allowed to radicalize their children out of society. I never understood why in the USA the state is allowed to indoctrinate everyone's children into their version of Ideal Vision of Society(tm)(r)(c)(patent pending). This is not a clash of religion vs secularism, it's about individual freedom vs state power. If you are interested in understanding the side that advocates individual freedom, I would suggest reading [1], [2], and wherever the links take you on that blog. [1] https://anarchistnotebook.com/2016/10/19/dont-let-your-enemy-raise-your-kids/ https://anarchistnotebook.com/2016/10/19/dont-let-your-enemy... [2] https://anarchistnotebook.com/2014/09/20/satanic/ https://anarchistnotebook.com/2014/09/20/satanic/

by kartan 10y ago

gambiting 10y ago

I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. It just seems to me that Americans fear radical islam, while extremely radical Christianity grows right under their noses. I agree that free state-run secular schools are the way to go for modern society.

guard-of-terra 10y ago
> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed Maybe we should just give kids to bullies to use as slaves? Probably auction them. (School was unarguably the worst period of my life, period. Bonus points for being blamed for that even later on, when affluent and successful) (Nobody ever blames bullies for being ones. They were "just kids". Now you - you do get blamed for having been bullied)
- gambiting 10y ago
  It's like saying that someone broke your arm at school,so maybe we should break arms of every kid at school. This would never happen with home schooling! My point is - these two are unrelated. I say home schooling shouldn't be allowed, you say you were bullied at school. So is your point that everyone should be home schooled? I mean....bullies are usually bullies because they have shit parents who don't care about their kids. Do you think that home schooling is the answer here?
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    My point is: You should be able to shield your kids from that shit. You should be able to take them home. I don't care about bullies, and the fun thing is: most kids are bullies when push comes to shove.
    - new299 10y ago
      With respect, the problem is that you are both using gut reactions and anecdotal personal experience in order to determine the correct government policy. You could approach it from a civil liberties angle. But if you're really interested in what would be best for the population overall, perhaps try and cite some data? It took me 5 minutes of Google searching to find some interesting results...
      - guard-of-terra 10y ago
        > for the population overall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om... It was definitely good for them to hold that child in the basement! As a population overall. Why would I care about "civil liberties" if they come at cost of ruining my life? And I know I'm not in any way an exception. I won't be around enjoying them, right? Do I look like a person who enjoys anything right now?
        new299 10y ago
        I think I wasn't clear on my meaning of "civil liberties". My meaning was this you can argue the following: That home schooling is a kind of basic human right. That there are some rights that a parent has to determine how their child is brought up. I'm not making that argument. But I would be interested in hearing it. And hearing a justification for it. Sounds like the Ursula K. Le Guin story is exploring individual versus group wellbeing. Thanks for posting it, I'll try and read it sometime. On a personal note: I do know that school can be a horrible place. It can also be a huge time wasting exercise. I intensely disliked it. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience there, schooling can be particularly distressing because it's an experience forced upon you at a young age. I hope you are able to work through your problems. A few weeks ago, at a local school (in Japan), a teacher beat a child in an after school class with a Kendo stick. The child was in hospital for a month. Very bad things happen at schools... But... these are all single data points. And I honestly want to understand the wider picture.
_petronius 10y ago
Fun fact: here in Germany, home schooling is illegal. I'm with you -- I think this is probably for the best. After all, how do you get kids to learn to socialize and integrate with society at large (regardless of their background), if they don't attend school and get out from under their parents? But this is also the only basis on which Germans can typically sucessfully claim asylum in the US, and have successfully in the past: the idea that they are fleeing "religious or political persecution" for not being allowed to keep their kids at home and teach them in an isolated environment.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  > socialize You mean, learn what it is to be ridiculed, assaulted and mocked? Awesome development indeed! How could I ever live without it!? I hope this happens to your kid.
- bambax 10y ago
  I don't know much about Germany but if what you say is true, it's great for the country: they are able to successfully expatriate the crazies out -- hey, the crazies expatriate themselves, willfully! That's pure magic.
- DougN7 10y ago
  It would be very interesting to go back to the 1940's and see what was being taught in the German schools. I'm in favor of public education - my three kids went to great public schools. But there is no perfect answer that works in all situations, all times and all places.
new299 10y ago
> I genuinely believe that home schooling shouldn't be allowed, except for kids with disabilities which stop them from leaving home. That doesn't really seem like a well reasoned argument. Can you provide any data to backup that statement? Let's try some quick googling. This article looks pretty good: http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-about-homeschooling/ http://www.educationandbehavior.com/what-does-research-say-a... Two interesting quotes from a paper they cite: "For instance, one nationwide study analyzed data from 1,952 homeschooled students across the country and found that the students, on average, scored at the eightieth percentile or higher in every test category" "Several studies found no significant difference in the social skills of homeschooled and non-homeschooled students. Other studies found that homeschooled children score significantly higher on social development rating scales/questionnaires."
- gambiting 10y ago
  The statement literally said "I believe that [...]". How can I provide data to back up that statement? I never reasoned that home schooling doesn't provide results, or that home schooled students do worse. I'm sure that with dedicated enough parents, it will provide results, and the students will do better or at least just as well! I still think that it shouldn't be allowed. I'm not sure how I can provide sources on that.
  - new299 10y ago
    Sorry, I should have said "could you provide data which shows your believe is valid/would make the world better?" Stating "I believe X" without any basis in reality doesn't seem like a useful contribution to any discussion really...
  - Inconel 10y ago
    I'm not nearly knowledgable enough about this subject to have a well informed opinion and my only exposure to homeschooled kids have turned out to be very well adjusted adults. Despite my own anecdotal experience, I'm certainly open to any data showing the overall negative effects that homeschooling may have on the societal level, but if you strongly believe it shouldn't be allowed, and yet this belief isn't based on any solid reasoning or evidence, isn't that somewhat similar to the kind of unfounded beliefs on display in the article?
shshhdhs 10y ago
There is nothing wrong with homeschooling. You're taking it out of proportion. I had difficulties with bullies for a few years, and my parents took me out of school to home school me. I benefited from this reset-- learned a lot about myself during that time (this is when I self-learned about tech & hacking). Homeschooling is a much safer environment to learn. State-run schools have drugs, violence, and often teachers who don't want to teach anymore.
natewalck 10y ago
I love how on HN you can make a statement like this with zero evidence and it doesn't get downvoted. If someone were to do the same for a tightly held HN friendly view, you would be crucified. Show me the numbers. What percent of homeschoolers are radical Christiana? Every home schooler I personally know is atheist/agnostic, well educated and want to make sure their kids get a solid education. (Because the public school system isn't delivering). If we are going on personal experience or assumptions, then my view is equally valid, if not more so as I have 5 data points :)
thescribe 10y ago
Would you be willing to elaborate on why the state should run schools? I am probably as extreme the other way as it is possible to be, but I'd like to understand where you are coming from.

noelwelsh 10y ago

I believe another important piece is the Fairness doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine) which forced news outlets in the US to present balanced news. Reagan killed this in 1987. It's made it much easier to live in a bubble. Fox News (and possibly most of the current US TV news; I'm not sure) couldn't exist if this doctrine was in place. The US has allowed many policies that has divided its people.

intended 10y ago
Wasn't there a famous case when Fox news said it wasn't news?
- dagw 10y ago
  No, their argument was that not all show no Fox News where news. They where trying to make a distinction between news shows and editorial shows.
vedranm 10y ago
Find it funny that you mention Fox News as biased. I find the other big three (CNN, NBC, ABC) unreadable/unwatchable, while Fox News is kind of OK. I prefer RT to any of them, though.

barry-cotter 10y ago

High quality state run Party schools are one of the most important social achievements. In those schools a new generation can grow and learn in the care of the Party while minimising radicalisation. That new generation learns about how World Jewry threatens the Aryan race and how the German Nation and the Nazi Party will lead us to greatness. This doesn't solve all problems, is not a silver bullet, but it improves society at large. I don't understand why in France parents are not teaching their children about the threat of World Jewry. Now I not just don't understand, but I see how dangerous the situation is.

kartan 10y ago
School is NOT the only source of knowledge. Parents have the most important role in teaching values. The school has an important role in socialization. School teaches the children that they are part of society and that there is people out there that are different and that's a good thing. It is as bad that children ONLY learn from their parents that children ONLY learn from the state. Both radical situations go against a complete and balanced education. I'm against "the state should be the only educator", my mistake if I didn't expressed that correctly.

vedranm 10y ago

>High-quality free state-run secular schools is one of the most important social achievements. Libertarian here. I find this idea a joke, and I believe in it just as much as the person who made the comment with "High quality state run Party schools" does. State-run schools (secular or not) is a great way to make sure that there is only one point which you need to overtake (through elections or corruption) when you want to push your ideology through the school system. >I never understood why in the USA parents are allowed to radicalize their children out of society. I never understood why in the USA the state is allowed to indoctrinate everyone's children into their version of Ideal Vision of Society(tm)(r)(c)(patent pending). This is not a clash of religion vs secularism, it's about individual freedom vs state power. If you are interested in understanding the side that advocates individual freedom, I would suggest reading [1], [2], and wherever the links take you on that blog. [1] https://anarchistnotebook.com/2016/10/19/dont-let-your-enemy-raise-your-kids/ https://anarchistnotebook.com/2016/10/19/dont-let-your-enemy... [2] https://anarchistnotebook.com/2014/09/20/satanic/ https://anarchistnotebook.com/2014/09/20/satanic/