4 ms·

Curious they have 2 pairs rather than a triplet

by __s 10y ago

VLM 10y ago
One simple hardware mental model is running two processors in parallel with XORs on all pins with wired-OR outputs hooked up to the error-shutdown line. In practice that doesn't really work because irrelevant differences in PCB trace length and clock distribution mean both processors run just a little bit outta sync jitter so the XOR will be firing fairly constantly for a fraction of each clock cycle. You could play games with gating and sampling only when well settled.... A somewhat more realistic way to build it outta real hardware involves each processor runs every 1 outta X clock cycles. Reading between the lines of the story WRT "down clocked processors" I suspect this is what its doing. This also detects weird power spike problems where lightning miles away means every processor running is going to run 0xFFFF whatever opcode that happens to be, but a couple ns later the spike is gone and the other processors are back to normal. Or RFI/EMC, etc. This is all very nice other than a significant hit to performance if you run a large number of processors. Then again if your primary figure of merit for your system is extreme reliability and not raw MIPS... It would be interesting to hear if they run dual port RAM to get around the jitter XOR problem and have some alternative way to detect synchronous behavior. Dual port ram is weird but COTS. Triple port ram is not as COTS.
- dfox 10y ago
  Comparing bus states of two CPU's running of same clock is perfectly feasible and there are no problems with glitches as long as the whole mechanism is synchronous (and the CPU is completely deterministic, which it should be, but then there are things like RNG-based cache eviction policies). In fact both original Pentium and some m68k processors have all the required hardware for this included and building error checking pair of them involves literally connecting all bus pins of two CPUs in parallel.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  I read architectural details of NonStop and Stratus. Both were designed to compare I/O outputs instead of just catching everything at CPU level. The CPU-level redundancy is more for catching transient faults with fail-fast logic. Idea is problem shows up in obvious way by time it hits I/O buses. Past that I dont recall much.
Sanddancer 10y ago
Triples can have their own fun failure modes. Suppose a surge or the like fries two chips at once. It's rather rare, but it happens from time to time. The instructions come out and now you have three chips with different results. Which ones are bad and which ones are the good? More importantly, how do you recover without taking the entire system down. Redundancy in this way means you have the best chance of catching problems, and also recovering from those problems when things do go cactus.
- abraae 10y ago
  As the old saying goes,"when you go to sea, take one clock or three".

Curious they have 2 pairs rather than a triplet

by __s 10y ago

Curious they have 2 pairs rather than a triplet

VLM 10y ago

One simple hardware mental model is running two processors in parallel with XORs on all pins with wired-OR outputs hooked up to the error-shutdown line. In practice that doesn't really work because irrelevant differences in PCB trace length and clock distribution mean both processors run just a little bit outta sync jitter so the XOR will be firing fairly constantly for a fraction of each clock cycle. You could play games with gating and sampling only when well settled.... A somewhat more realistic way to build it outta real hardware involves each processor runs every 1 outta X clock cycles. Reading between the lines of the story WRT "down clocked processors" I suspect this is what its doing. This also detects weird power spike problems where lightning miles away means every processor running is going to run 0xFFFF whatever opcode that happens to be, but a couple ns later the spike is gone and the other processors are back to normal. Or RFI/EMC, etc. This is all very nice other than a significant hit to performance if you run a large number of processors. Then again if your primary figure of merit for your system is extreme reliability and not raw MIPS... It would be interesting to hear if they run dual port RAM to get around the jitter XOR problem and have some alternative way to detect synchronous behavior. Dual port ram is weird but COTS. Triple port ram is not as COTS.

dfox 10y ago
Comparing bus states of two CPU's running of same clock is perfectly feasible and there are no problems with glitches as long as the whole mechanism is synchronous (and the CPU is completely deterministic, which it should be, but then there are things like RNG-based cache eviction policies). In fact both original Pentium and some m68k processors have all the required hardware for this included and building error checking pair of them involves literally connecting all bus pins of two CPUs in parallel.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
I read architectural details of NonStop and Stratus. Both were designed to compare I/O outputs instead of just catching everything at CPU level. The CPU-level redundancy is more for catching transient faults with fail-fast logic. Idea is problem shows up in obvious way by time it hits I/O buses. Past that I dont recall much.

Sanddancer 10y ago

Triples can have their own fun failure modes. Suppose a surge or the like fries two chips at once. It's rather rare, but it happens from time to time. The instructions come out and now you have three chips with different results. Which ones are bad and which ones are the good? More importantly, how do you recover without taking the entire system down. Redundancy in this way means you have the best chance of catching problems, and also recovering from those problems when things do go cactus.

abraae 10y ago
As the old saying goes,"when you go to sea, take one clock or three".