4 ms·

I personally find Steve Blank has some interesting things to say and Eric Ries not so much, comparitively. The latter seems to be trying to turn a simple idea (

I personally find Steve Blank has some interesting things to say and Eric Ries not so much, comparitively. The latter seems to be trying to turn a simple idea (combine agile engineering practices with Steve Blank's "customer discovery/validation" idea") into a consultingware "movement" with kool-aid conferences and such, just as with all business fads. The jury is still out on the eventual success of such efforts. The nearest analogy is the whole "Agile" movement. There was a useful/interesting kernel of ideas but it was soon overrun by scammy consultants (e.g the hwle "Scrum Master" certification scam). I suspect "Lean Startups" are on the same path. I do think Mr.Ries has some (mildly) interesting things to say, but (and this is probably blasphemy for at least a subset of HN readers) my "marketing bullshit" filter is on at high when I read or listen to him these days. I believe that the whole "lean startup" movement is in its early stages of being overrrun by scamsters so there are still interesting ideas there. So yes, (imo) at least some part of the "Lean Startup" (the phrase is copyrighted by Mr Ries btw!) stuff is marketing BS. As always you as the consumer of such fads have to use your intelligence to discard the marketing fluff and find the useful core. And every fad generally has a (sometimes tiny) useful core. Caveat Emptor. Useful idea, especially as it applies to methodology salesmen, irrespective of whether said methodology applies to sw dev (agile) or building/running a business ("lean startup").

giffc 16y ago
I believe that Eric's heart is in the right place and he truly wants to help more entrepreneurs. I don't disagree that born-again evangelism and "scammy consultants" is an unfortunate side effect of what is going on. While people will like or dislike my op-ed as they will, I'd just like to say that in writing the blog post, I had no such motives (consulting, that is) -- I'm just another startup guy trying to build a company. I do agree with the other commenter that there is a new set of "buzzwords" floating around, like MVP, product-market fit, pivot, etc. These phrases emerge as shorthand. But still I do believe that these authors are more rigorous, more into measurement and results, and more down-to-earth practical than the kinds of biz-consulting blowhard that turned everyone off business speak in the first place.
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  " I'd just like to say that in writing the blog post, I had no such motives (consulting, that is) ". I never said you did (just in case it wasn't clear :-)). It is obvious you honestly believe that there is a lot of valuable insight behind the "marketing bullshit" enveloping the "lean startup" buzz. I don't agree (or at least I don't agree about the ratio of hype to substance, but that is all right, differences of opinion are good). I do think (as I indicated above) that Steve Blank's books and blog posts are worth reading as are some of Eric Ries's early blog posts (before he got onto this "evangelism"/paid conferences kick). I am not claiming they are stupendously new insights but definitely worth reading and thinking about. I think 700$ "lean startup conferences" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1179623 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1179623) are very like 700$ "I will teach you to be rich" scams. People who are really rich don't go around holding seminars on How to Be Rich and charging people money for those. I believe you could get much more value from reading patio11 's posts here and on his blog, Paul Graham's essays and mixergy interview transcripts of startup founders than attending these vague conferences (unless you are into heavy duty echo chamber networking), thus avoiding paying good money to be initiated into "A New Era of Enterpreneurship that is dawning" [ from the marketing spiel at http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2010/03/new-conference-website-speakers-agenda.html http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2010/03/new-conference-... ] Is there something to the "lean startups" idea? Definitely. Is there a lot of borderline scammy hype right now (in other words a lot of "marketing bullshit") around those ideas? Definitely.
  - patio11 16y ago
    Not that Eric Ries et al need validation from me, but I nearly went to that conference. (The timing just did not work for me.) You think $700 is a lot of money? I was getting ready to buy a plane ticket across the Pacific. I thought it was likely to be cheap at the price, given the quality of the novel insights Eric Ries et al have been writing about. Take Minimum Viable Product, for example. It is similar to 37Signals "do less", but it doesn't end there: you're eliminating parts of the product which don't provide value, but you're also strategically deferring parts which do provide value until you've got a handle on the big business risks. I think that is a pretty powerful idea. Hugely powerful. I've talked on the Business of Software forums for literally years now on how important polishing the first five minutes of interaction with your product is, but it never occurred to me to get that five minutes out before building the rest of the product. The story about spending 6 months to make the IMVU IM client being wasted because no one downloaded it, and how you could have gotten the same information without actually coding the IM client simply by putting up a download button and having nobody click it, was a lightbulb moment for me. Hey, wait a second: instead of building the whole product and then optimizing the living daylights out of the first five minutes, I can build the first five minutes and see if that knocks socks off. If so, then invest in building the rest of the product. (If not, figure out why it isn't knocking socks off and recalibrate. I'm not sure I like "pivot.") This was hugely influential in my choice of Appointment Reminder over a notebook full of other ideas for my next product. There are probably a few decent ideas in there (amidst a lot of drek and random scribblings), but Appointment Reminder was the one that had an obvious opportunity for a very compelling demo implementable in a few weeks. And I think it will work fairly decently for me. Heck, I think I stole three ideas just from watching the videos.
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
Agile...was soon overrun by scammy consultants... (Scrum Master, etc.) I've seen multiple movements in technology management. I've seen them start, grow, and fade out (they never die). I don't believe in certifications, and I'm a consultant. I think you either don't understand the pattern of what goes on, or are exaggerating for effect.
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "I've seen multiple movements in technology management. I've seen them start, grow, and fade out (they never die). I don't believe in certifications, and I'm a consultant." None of which invalidates anything I said. "I think you either don't understand the pattern of what goes on, or are exaggerating for effect." Neither. I meant exactly what I said (and I do understand the pattern of what happened and is happening to agile - I was there seeing it happen) and stand by it. That said, I don't want this thread to degenerate into the "truth" of agile and our perceptions about it. My email is in my profile if you feel like following up.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    Sent you the email. I have no desire to argue the truth of anything. You made a blanket statement that tried to exclude a vast array of knowledge and people who attempt to learn and apply that knowledge. Defend it or not here, but I found it accidentally inaccurate or purposely misleading. It also applies directly to the point both you were making and the point the article was making. Happy to take it offline. Write me an email and prove your case. But enough with the drive-by stereotyping.
    - plinkplonk 16y ago
      "Sent you the email." Haven't got it yet. "You made a blanket statement that tried to exclude a vast array of knowledge and people who attempt to learn and apply that knowledge." Rubbish. I said agile has a lot of scamsters, especially the "Scrum Master" folks. If you haven't seen these guys and how they proliferate you haven't been looking much. I never said every single agile consultant on the face of the Earth is a fraud. I can't help it if you take offence or somehow think I was talking about you in particular. If you want a clarification about anything I actually said (vs what you heard) write me. (Apologies to the rest of HN for this vapid detour/threadjack). I am done with this. Over and out.

giffc 16y ago

I believe that Eric's heart is in the right place and he truly wants to help more entrepreneurs. I don't disagree that born-again evangelism and "scammy consultants" is an unfortunate side effect of what is going on. While people will like or dislike my op-ed as they will, I'd just like to say that in writing the blog post, I had no such motives (consulting, that is) -- I'm just another startup guy trying to build a company. I do agree with the other commenter that there is a new set of "buzzwords" floating around, like MVP, product-market fit, pivot, etc. These phrases emerge as shorthand. But still I do believe that these authors are more rigorous, more into measurement and results, and more down-to-earth practical than the kinds of biz-consulting blowhard that turned everyone off business speak in the first place.

plinkplonk 16y ago
" I'd just like to say that in writing the blog post, I had no such motives (consulting, that is) ". I never said you did (just in case it wasn't clear :-)). It is obvious you honestly believe that there is a lot of valuable insight behind the "marketing bullshit" enveloping the "lean startup" buzz. I don't agree (or at least I don't agree about the ratio of hype to substance, but that is all right, differences of opinion are good). I do think (as I indicated above) that Steve Blank's books and blog posts are worth reading as are some of Eric Ries's early blog posts (before he got onto this "evangelism"/paid conferences kick). I am not claiming they are stupendously new insights but definitely worth reading and thinking about. I think 700$ "lean startup conferences" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1179623 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1179623) are very like 700$ "I will teach you to be rich" scams. People who are really rich don't go around holding seminars on How to Be Rich and charging people money for those. I believe you could get much more value from reading patio11 's posts here and on his blog, Paul Graham's essays and mixergy interview transcripts of startup founders than attending these vague conferences (unless you are into heavy duty echo chamber networking), thus avoiding paying good money to be initiated into "A New Era of Enterpreneurship that is dawning" [ from the marketing spiel at http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2010/03/new-conference-website-speakers-agenda.html http://www.startuplessonslearned.com/2010/03/new-conference-... ] Is there something to the "lean startups" idea? Definitely. Is there a lot of borderline scammy hype right now (in other words a lot of "marketing bullshit") around those ideas? Definitely.
- patio11 16y ago
  Not that Eric Ries et al need validation from me, but I nearly went to that conference. (The timing just did not work for me.) You think $700 is a lot of money? I was getting ready to buy a plane ticket across the Pacific. I thought it was likely to be cheap at the price, given the quality of the novel insights Eric Ries et al have been writing about. Take Minimum Viable Product, for example. It is similar to 37Signals "do less", but it doesn't end there: you're eliminating parts of the product which don't provide value, but you're also strategically deferring parts which do provide value until you've got a handle on the big business risks. I think that is a pretty powerful idea. Hugely powerful. I've talked on the Business of Software forums for literally years now on how important polishing the first five minutes of interaction with your product is, but it never occurred to me to get that five minutes out before building the rest of the product. The story about spending 6 months to make the IMVU IM client being wasted because no one downloaded it, and how you could have gotten the same information without actually coding the IM client simply by putting up a download button and having nobody click it, was a lightbulb moment for me. Hey, wait a second: instead of building the whole product and then optimizing the living daylights out of the first five minutes, I can build the first five minutes and see if that knocks socks off. If so, then invest in building the rest of the product. (If not, figure out why it isn't knocking socks off and recalibrate. I'm not sure I like "pivot.") This was hugely influential in my choice of Appointment Reminder over a notebook full of other ideas for my next product. There are probably a few decent ideas in there (amidst a lot of drek and random scribblings), but Appointment Reminder was the one that had an obvious opportunity for a very compelling demo implementable in a few weeks. And I think it will work fairly decently for me. Heck, I think I stole three ideas just from watching the videos.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

Agile...was soon overrun by scammy consultants... (Scrum Master, etc.) I've seen multiple movements in technology management. I've seen them start, grow, and fade out (they never die). I don't believe in certifications, and I'm a consultant. I think you either don't understand the pattern of what goes on, or are exaggerating for effect.

plinkplonk 16y ago
"I've seen multiple movements in technology management. I've seen them start, grow, and fade out (they never die). I don't believe in certifications, and I'm a consultant." None of which invalidates anything I said. "I think you either don't understand the pattern of what goes on, or are exaggerating for effect." Neither. I meant exactly what I said (and I do understand the pattern of what happened and is happening to agile - I was there seeing it happen) and stand by it. That said, I don't want this thread to degenerate into the "truth" of agile and our perceptions about it. My email is in my profile if you feel like following up.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  Sent you the email. I have no desire to argue the truth of anything. You made a blanket statement that tried to exclude a vast array of knowledge and people who attempt to learn and apply that knowledge. Defend it or not here, but I found it accidentally inaccurate or purposely misleading. It also applies directly to the point both you were making and the point the article was making. Happy to take it offline. Write me an email and prove your case. But enough with the drive-by stereotyping.
  - plinkplonk 16y ago
    "Sent you the email." Haven't got it yet. "You made a blanket statement that tried to exclude a vast array of knowledge and people who attempt to learn and apply that knowledge." Rubbish. I said agile has a lot of scamsters, especially the "Scrum Master" folks. If you haven't seen these guys and how they proliferate you haven't been looking much. I never said every single agile consultant on the face of the Earth is a fraud. I can't help it if you take offence or somehow think I was talking about you in particular. If you want a clarification about anything I actually said (vs what you heard) write me. (Apologies to the rest of HN for this vapid detour/threadjack). I am done with this. Over and out.